How To Design A Sales Page The Converts With Melissa Burkheimer

TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED Diane: Hey, Hey, you are in for a treat on today's show. My guest, Melissa Burkheimer is a million dollar. It's underline that million dollar sales page designer, launch strategist, and course creator. And she's going to pull back the curtain on how we can create sales pages without feeling like we are going to pull our hair out. Hey Melissa. Welcome to the show. Melissa: Hi, Dan, thank you so much for having me. I'm so grateful to be here. Diane: so let's kick off with a little bit about your business journey. Melissa: Cool. So I started my business really because I wanted to get paid to be creative and I wanted to be able to take my kids to, and from school, like when they need to do you go to school and when preschool, the hours are different than mine. Cool. And I just needed pure flexibility. So I started networking and I got, you know, I met people and I got freelance design gigs in my local town. I live in Des Moines, Iowa in the United States. And. I was charging $20 an hour. And I was so excited because I was getting paid to use the skills I had went to college for. And then a couple of years into that, I started taking online courses because I had really, I was working with really great local clients who were paying me for like work on demand whenever they needed it. But it was enough to like sustain what I needed for the lifestyle I wanted at the time. And well, I really, the lifestyle I still want. And I realized that there was like more out there and I stumbled upon a webinar that someone had tweeted that someone was hosting. And I was like, so infatuated with like how they were like marketing themselves. And how were they putting them? How are they putting themselves out there? And I started taking online courses and then before I knew it. You're making all those connections. I ended up getting a gig for a sell page. I didn't know that that game was a sales page. Someone just said, Hey, I need a graphic diner. And I raised my hand. And that gig ended up being a page for Amy Porterfield. I wasn't working directly with Amy. I was working with someone who was on the back of the, for launches at that time for that specific course, this was December of 2013. So it was about two happy years or almost actually two years or so into my business. Diane: Okay. Melissa: Everything shifted. And in the next six months I had given notice a nice 60 day notice to all of my local clients, because I had gotten so many sales page, project referrals. And then that's kind of the space I've been in for the last seven ish years. I've also launched dozens of my own offers, mentoring designers, mastermind. Programs. I've been a long shot at, as launch manager. You name it and you know, my some all combined, I haven't even calculated it, but my facilitators I've designed have helped my clients earn millions of dollars, but also like really create a big impact in their world. Diane: Wow. That is quite the entrepreneurial story. It's like the Amy Porterfield effect dumped on. Melissa: I also want to say that, like, I don't even like to use a lot of the clients I've named that I've used when I'm talking about it, because I don't want people to think, oh, she works with this person and she's like, not relatable or she's not this, but everybody starts somewhere. And it just so happened to be that, I did what I said I was going to do when I said I was going to do it. And that like, and on top of the designs that helped my clients make money. That's really what helped set me apart and get referrals. And I had no working sales page for this service for like two or three years. No joke. And I was really enjoying it because I enjoyed. The simplicity of a sales page versus like a big brand or a website, because I could get in finish the project within, you know, two or three weeks. Now people can do them in a day. And then, you know, my clients are making money and I, you know, I so meet people like years later that remember a sales page, I designed from a course that they bought. Or that they just remember seeing the launch, you know what I mean? So obviously the market's much different these days and my business looks a little bit different, but I think that, you know, this was 10 years. It's not like this happened overnight for me. And I really, I w I would honestly say that I didn't really even start to try to make like a quote unquote digital presence for myself until like 2019. I did, like, in the early days, like I had some YouTube videos of their soul and their thing, and they're still up, but they're like back when I was like, still like, trying to. Teach social media marketing and like, you know, things like that and that's going to change. But I also have a podcast called the design business show where we talk about design and business and you know, all the things that go on behind the scenes of your favorite, you know, campaigns and projects. Diane: I think design is is for me personally, but I also think for a lot of entrepreneurs, design is such a complex realm. You can teach somebody to write. And you can, teach somebody to structure an offer, but design beyond like build an infographic in Canva full, most people feels really elusive. We all know when something looks good to us, but we don't know why. We also not that great at knowing when something looks really bad and we still publish it. Melissa: so here's what I'll say to that. I think that you can definitely teach yourself to have an eye for design within your projects by looking at like, and we can talk about some really simple tips too. And I honestly think that anyone can design and I'm, this is coming from me saying, I don't think I'm the best designer out there. I think that there's a lot of designers. Who are talented in lots of areas like they're super talented illustrators and there's really talented web developers and there's talented, you know, people who can do illustration, web dev, UX design, and all of it. And so I think that once you really kind of. Hone in on your expertise or like what you want that expertise to be as a designer, or even as a non designer, just really understanding like the things that will help make a difference in the results of your business and the experience that a brand will create for your audience. I think those things are way more important than worrying about like the technical things we have to learn when it comes to like using Adobe or even using canvas. Diane: So I guess the million dollar question is then what is it that makes a sales page convert? What are we looking for in the design? Melissa: the million dollar question. So I'm going to back up to say, like, what would make the sales page convert? Like the first thing I think anyone really needs to have is an offer that's already converted. And I think that this is where I'm, and I'm not sure, like if your listeners are like beginner, if they're, you know, experienced, but you know, at the end of the day, you can make sales without a sales page. You can contact people, you know, to say, Hey, who do you know that can use my service? Or you can say, Hey, I've got this thing I'm trying out, you know, maybe it's a VIP design day, or maybe it's like a one-on-one mindset training, you know, or mindset coaching called the are going to deal with someone you can say, Hey, you know, I'm trying this out. Or, you know, I've got this new thing. This is how it's worked for my clients. Are you interested or do you know anybody who's interested? You can sell that way. Once you have an offer, that's like very solid, especially like this is specific to digital offers. I would say then that to me is when you're going to have an easier time getting a sales page to convert because in the sales stage just becomes a part of your digital. Strategy. So like what happens when you meet someone from the inquiry period to where they're like following you on social media to then after they buy from you? And the sales page is really just a digital marketing tool within the process. So my recommendation for, you know, this goes back to like, away from design versus just like making sure that the offers very clear. Making sure that I know exactly what I'm going to purchase early on in the sale page. There will be people who might have a difference of opinion on this, but my advice get straight to the point. Is this a four week accelerator program for graphic designers? Is this a 10 week sales course for people who own flower shops like. Is it what's the container? How is it delivered? What can I expect to buy? Like if I go buy a vanilla cake, that's, you know, got three layers, like it will say three layer of vanilla cake. Let's use those really specific descriptions in the copy. And then let's use visuals to make them design a couple, you know, design tips for yourself page specifically. Keep your header menu like that you have on your website for your website and on your sales page. We really want to include links to things other than like your legal pages, like a privacy policy earnings disclaimer, and terms and conditions, because you do need those, but I'm not a lawyer, so I can't help you with those. But like, you just really want to include links that help people make the decision to say yes to your offer, because we want to make this easy. We don't want them to get distracted by your YouTube videos or like your Instagram page or things like that. I think that there is a very appropriate to have, you know, an about you section on your sales page versus. And about you paid, if that makes sense. So you can take the regular elements you would use on a web design and use design and the content piece of it to help explain who you are and why people should come. And, you know, make yourself relatable. And so at the end of the day, I think that, you know, getting a design on your sales page to convert was just keeping things, very clean testing the user experience. So make sure it looks good on mobile. A lot of people miss this and going through the entire, you know, buyer journey, you know, again from start to finish on your own or have people on your team, do it to make sure that the experience is set up. To help you get sales versus making it harder for people. Let's say if the sales page doesn't win. Diane: I'm the person who designs the whole thing and then goes, oh wait, I should probably look at what this looks like on my phone and then goes I need to redesign it , from the beginning. So if somebody has that offer and it's converting and they say upfront what it is, it's the three layer, vanilla cake upfront. How do they use Design. to draw the user through that journey that you were talking about? Melissa: So design does that by really combining the UX, the user experience, the copy, and then making it easy for like the eye on the people and you know, the people reading it. So like one thing I really liked to do the sales pages I design is at the top of the sell page. It's called the hero section. So next time you're in a, in a launch meeting or something you could say, this is what we're going to do for the hero section. Like get to the point with your headline. So be very, very clear about what. The end result is going to be again, there will be some, you know, information, you know, advice that will conflict with us, but this is what 95% of the sales pages I've designed working with, you know, pro copywriters and people who are doing multiple multi seven figure, multi figure launches. So get to the point, give us. Give us some type of brand identity and that hero section that tells us who we're going to be working with, if you are like a personal brand. So that could be your photo, a logo, colors, fonts, just like basic things that will help me recognize, oh, this is Diane self-aid and she makes a three layer of vanilla cake. But I know right when I get to, I know, right when I get to the page by the photo of the kid, By the picture of you in your kitchen and assembling the cake that I'm going to get a three layer vanilla cake, because that's what it says. And then there's a button right there. That's the brightest color in your brand palette. If you don't have a bright color, just pick another one. I can go directly there. Well, let's say I'm not convinced I'm going to keep reading and I'm going to talk about the best. Of purchasing this real, this three layer, vanilla cake. I'm going to, one of the benefits is that I don't have to make it myself and that my audience will be wowed and it will taste delicious. So look at how basic the benefits are that we're talking about here. They're just like things that you wouldn't think about to put on a sales page. Let's say you're going to teach a digital course about how to make a quilt. Wow. Your, you know, your family with the quilt, you know, with the quilts that you have on your quilt ladder, learn this new skill that will show you how to get the fancy stitching. And I'm not a culture, but my mom makes clubs from trying to make us up. You know, that gets the fancy stitching after you put the thing together to really give it that wow factor, you know, A ton of different things, you know, that are a benefit to your offer. So let's include some benefits. Let's share some testimonials that are relevant to the digital offer that you're creating. Let's share testimonial from maybe people who are bigger names to help give you some brand credibility. Let's share logos of where you've been featured. What's really. Be clear about what our refund policy is. And at the end of the day, let's give people a recap section with payment options and a place to actually buy so that they really understand what they're getting on the page. You know, like design goes into this so much, but like one thing you can do to help break up all those different sections. I talked about what, you know, you should have a couple more is changing the color of your background. And let's say you have a black and white palette. Well, you could have one background. The next one can be great. The next one can be black. I don't like to recommend using a ton of black backgrounds in your designs because the white text can be hard for accessibility. Yeah. If your sales page works on mobile, you're more likely to get the conversion over someone who didn't take the time to make the design look good. So I think at the end of the day, clean shape lines and things like bullet techs, narrow columns and brightly colored buttons are just like very simple ways that anyone even a non-designer to make their sales page stand out and easy for the person. Diane: Yeah, I think that's so interesting because when I'm in that, like I have quite a blue palette and I have multiple options and, and I love like I could kind of gradient block for something that I'm trying to like point attention to. But I get really sucked into the professionally designed sales page that has the like beautiful picture background that fits completely perfectly. And then I'm like, oh, let me try that. So it's really good to hear you say, look, all you're using that background for is to break it up for the eye and to allow it to have a, a moment to realize that it's going into something different. And it can be as simple as just changing. Melissa: It can be as simple as changing a color. But one of my favorite things to do is to zoom out on my sales pages when I'm designing them and making sure like, like the last sales page I designed for our client. Like we have, there's a lot of color. There's lots of TEALS and yellows and pinks and glutes. Well, we have like one yellow section. And that's it. So then we kind of changed things around so that there was multiple yellow sections throughout the page. So it wasn't just like this one random section that was there alone. So you can repeat you know, design, design ideas, you know, design sections with different colors and different colors of texts. You can add a box around some bullets just to like, make it stand out at a color behind that box. So again, very simple geometric and a lot of people I know don't want to have their photo all over their sales. So there's lots of ways you can do that. There's simply through color and like some design elements, you can find them even simply on creative market, you know? Diane: I think simplifies things immensely. I liked what you said about the buttons, because I'm that, I'm the top button person. I just want to see how much it costs. Like I've already researched you. I know that I want to buy it. I just want to know how much it costs and what hoops I need to jump through. But I know that some people are like, Hey, I want to know every single detail before I even risk talking to you. It's finding that balance , I always feel like I've got so many buttons. I think normally I have about four on a long sales page,, one at the beginning, one at the end and then one after the offer and one somewhere else. But it always feels like so much to me, but without realizing that actually half the people haven't scrolled beyond like the first button. Melissa: Yeah. And I'll say that I don't think that having a lot of buttons is a problem, but what happens when someone clicks a button is a place in the planning stage where a lot of people don't consider. And I would love to rip on that for like one second, if that's okay with you. But like, so what I would like to have my buttons do. Hey, remember I said, like in your navigation, you really need to include links to things that will help people make the decision to say yes to your offer. So again, no YouTube pages, no about new pages. No, you know, you're, this is your work with me page for shells. That's what, that's what it is. So the goal is to get a sale. And so once we kind of take a step back and look at what the goals are, okay, what is the user going to do on the page? My recommendation is to always include the top button and then send it to a recap section or like a pricing graphic. Let's say you have like a standard option and a VIP option, but pricing graphics, you can do them with like, again, two vertical boxes next to each other. That renders really well from mobile. You can do like one of those designs you'll see on like lead pages where like, you know, there's check marks. There's like check, check marks and like, X's on like what you get and what you don't get within the different levels. Those you have to really make sure and pay attention to when you're developing the mobile page, just because they can be a little bit trickier, but like send your button. To the recap section. So people can take a second and recap everything they're going to buy. And then in that same section include what your refund policy is. You don't need to have like five paragraphs, like I'm a pretty solid, no refund person. Like we either want to work with me on this offer or you. You know what I mean? Some people will have conditional refunds. So like if you take the first modules and some maintenance, you know, the first two modules of the digital course, you submit your homework, then, you know, I think it's very important to be very clear about those things, but take your buttons. You know, to the recap section, whether that's a pricing graphic or just like a box with bullet checks with bullets checks that recap everything. So let's say I'm going to get five weeks, you know, five calls And within new people usually are doing weekly calls these days or one call every two weeks, you get a template library, you get these bonuses, you get these guest trainings with, you know, these people, you get six modules. Now, those are the types of things we want to know if you're selling a service. Okay, well, when you work with me, you're going to get a sales page, PSC that's yours that you can use for all the other graphics you want. You're going to get professional project management because I'm going to be doing it. You're going to get your copy reviewed before we. Start because I won't design a page. If I don't think the copy is clear, you're going to get someone who's going to be coordinating all of the project, the building, you know, the project timeline with your team, your copywriter, your developer, your analysts, you know, Facebook. Yeah. People like all of the people. So like, I'm not, I'm not like trying to pitch anybody here. I'm just trying to give you an example of like what you get like, yes, I'm designing you a sales page, but I'm really taking a big project, you know, one of the biggest projects within your launch off of your plate. So I'll recap all of those things on my own sales page. So people know. And then what happens after we click the button? Do you have multiple payment options? Do I click one button and go to option a or do I click one button and go to option eight and be on that next checkout page? So you have to really kind of consider like what that's going to look like. Is there a painful Bowman? Can I say painful and. $2,000 a month. I'm just making numbers up here. Can I pay in full, I get access to this training? So it's really important to just be super crystal clear about all of the details about your offer, and then you can use simple design and by the time you're ready, you know, you'll probably have a sales page that's working, but the next level for your launches is going to be that upgraded design. You know what I mean? Diane: So the very top button, and I guess any buttons above where you do that initial graphic, you wanted to go to that graphic. And then after that, so like I have one after, at the very end, that's like, after all my frequently asked questions section, would you bump that one back up to the price thing again, every time and only the price button actually goes to say, thrive cart to checkout. Melissa: I mean, I think you can do it either way. And I think it's going to depend really on how warm the audience is because someone like you, who's going to be really warm. You're like me, you're going to do all the research. You're going to stock this person. You're going to like, co-founder YouTube videos from 10 years ago. I mean, that's a little, you're going to find their house, but you want to know about the character or someone you're going to buy them. So I think it would kind of really depend on the audience, but yes, my recommendation is to shift most of those buttons to the you know, to the main pricing graphic or like the closest one. You don't have to do that for all of them, especially if there's one at the bottom of the page, I would guess that people who have read the whole page. Well, you can send them straight to a checkout page, but this is where tools like Hotjar come in really handy because you know, what happens are they clicking on the, let's say you have a button that goes straight to the checkout page, but then they're not converting, but you have more people converting who click on the button and the pricing graphic, where we recap everything. It's really important to kind of know those details and be able to make adjustments, you know, as things are going on. Diane: So it's still an optimization thing. It's not just like, oh, your sales page is now complete need. Do nothing else. It is actually, how is this converting? Where is it converting from? Melissa: Yeah, how do I make? And it's really a tool. Like you can take a sales page, help you, it can help you sell whatever you're selling for years on it. And it really depends on like what your marketing strategy is. Like. I don't do a ton of analytics on like my own sales page, just because to me, if someone there's only one button on my sales page two, it's at the very bottom and that's on purpose because I want people to read the entire page. And then I want them to answer my 17 questions about their business because. Form alone can help me qualify or disqualify a client. I always will take a call with someone if they fill out that form, because I feel like, you know, they may come to me a year later if they're not ready yet. Because that, that has actually happened multiple times. So I think it really just depends on like what your sales strategy is and really getting that part of your launch plan. You know what I mean? And I actually refused for years to create like a digital course about sales pages, because I know that a sales page alone, isn't going to be the thing that does the trick, but I changed my mind. Finally. And so I have like a $37 course where I walked through basic design tips. I walked through. Copy. I show you how to like, introduce yourself on the page, how to plan the project. Cause again, it can be one of the biggest launch projects you have. You mentioned it can be overwhelming. And you know, when we design the sales pages, different sections versus doing the whole thing at once, we can kind of test it, you know? Design and to see what's going to work versus doing the whole thing and making sure, you know, and then having to go change everything, you know, later, like you mentioned earlier, Diane: Yeah. And so what is your sales page? Pet peeve. We've talked about what you like and what works. What is your thing that when you, when you open up someone's sales page, you're like, I'm totally judging you. Melissa: I don't know that this is, I'm not really a very judging person, but it's like, like things that I don't like. And again, these are my personal opinions are, and I there's a name for them. I don't know the correct terminology for this. When you're scrolling on an image and the photo scrolls, but the text stays. Do you know what I'm talking about? I think it's confusing because I want the whole thing to move together versus it moving like, Diane: Yeah. Melissa: because my eyes are going to the photo because the photo is a bright something that's more brightly colored. So I don't like that effect on sales pages that was texting. That's a personal preference. I just don't like it when they're like messy and. And like, there's not like clean lines in space, but listen, there are people that make bazillions of dollars with messy, ugly Selfridges. You know what I mean? But I just liked them when they're, they're more clean. Like when I'm in an environment that's like decluttered and there's flowers next to me and I've got a candle. It, my fans on me so hot, like I feel better. So I think it's the same thing kind of applies to yourself. Features like clean things up, Diane: it's a little like inviting somebody into your office and all the files are built up into piles and about to full on you versus walking into someone's space. And there's like essential oils and candles and everything's clean. Melissa: Yeah. And think about like, when you go to get a massage and I don't, you know, I love getting massages. It's one of the things I do to like, quote unquote, treat myself. I love to go to a massage room that's clean and there's like, Fun relaxing meditation and music playing at when the patient is in the world. But you know what I mean? I can tell that they like wash their sheets. I can tell that they care about having a clean environment. I don't want it to be like 10 year old carpet. I want it to be nice and clean. And so I think you can apply those same. You know, tips to your sales page, I know there's someone who is like teaching, like having the testimonial and the side of a section let's say you have a section on your piece thing, who this is for, in my opinion, in that section of your page, just have the food. This is for section and create another section for the testimonial. It's not a space. They were to me. It's distracting. Too much all at once. Like where am I supposed to go? I don't know. Diane: I saw a really interesting one today. Where they had, who this is for. And they had like the four different types of people that it was for. So they had a photo of the person and they're job titles. So like, say coach, and then if you were a coach, you could click on the coach one to read the coach testimonial. But I almost didn't read the testimonial because I didn't realize it was there. I was like, who were these random photos? Melissa: And I'm I, this is another pet peeve and it's not even a pet peeve. Like if a client really wants it, I will say yes, but I don't like tiled design or like tiled testimonials. Where like, if you have like one section on the page, like, let's say you're viewing it on your desktop. Like right now on our desktop, like I'm on the left side, you're on the right side. That would be like a tile design. I don't like testimonials. I liked them all there. But I think it, again, it's just really making things easier on your clients and their eyes and like the information that they're taking in, because we all like have different ways that we absorb information. So I think again, making it easy and clear and simple is a much better thing than having a fancy, you know, a hundred bazillion dollar. Diane: Yeah. I think non-designers were so afraid of like white space. We don't realize like the value of it until you see a really well-designed page. And you're like, there's like my eyes just feel so rested. It's like, they've had a little mini vacation between lines It feels like it's going to be much easier to achieve that now. Having listened to these tips, I think you've taken a lot of the, Melissa: Well, I have this thing that's totally free. It is called the sales page toolkit and it's basically a sales page, Trello board. Like it's, there's so much goodness in there. I give you like copy, outline, design examples. So you can see Diane: pressure off of me to make it super fancy and have all the bells and whistles that you see on the giant big names. Yeah. You know, obviously paying entire teams to maintain all of that for them as well. Melissa: Yeah. Diane: helpful. So if somebody is like me and is like, okay, I have to do a sales page and I'm a little bit nervous and I don't know where to start. Where's a good place for them to find some resources. Melissa: Well, I have this thing that's totally free. It is called the sales page toolkit and it's basically a sales page, Trello board. Like it's, there's so much goodness in there. I give you like copy, outline, design examples. So you can see, um, a project plan. I think there's even like lists of referrals in there. So you can literally take that and then add it to your own Trello account or like, Move it to Amazon or wherever you are, and then give yourself like, step one, step two, step three, step four. As far as like creating a project and then look at the design examples of the different sections of the page. And, you know, you keep that in mind when you're working on your copy. And I think that that's like the first thing you can do if I also have a $37 course, it's called sell page superstar and you can just go to sales page, superstar.com. There's more copy templates in there. There's a design lesson. There's copy lessons. There's a project plan. And there's actually going to be I don't know when this is going live, like a bonus, like launch mapping workshop I'm doing for anyone who purchased it. Like in the, within the last month to help them, like really kind of take the sales page and use it in their launch process. So that's like, those are a couple of options that you can do. I also work one-on-one with people on sales stages, and I know a ton of designers if like I'm not, I get better, like I'm booked or something. Diane: This has been well, it's been very helpful to me. I'm very excited to dig into all of those to finish up. I always ask my guests a couple of questions. The first one is what is your number one lifestyle boundary for your business? Melissa: Hmm. I don't know that anyone's ever asked me that question before. I don't want to have to like sacrifice my well-being for any project, even if it's a dream project Early on in the business, there was, you know, a person who's pretty like kind of mega famous now, but he wasn't that he was kind of well-known back then. It was like 2014 and my husband is a web developer and they needed a membership site designed and developed. And I was like, you know what? I can bring him in. He can do the development. And we were sitting, you know, mine design part was done, but we were sitting at like literally games for my kids and. We've got a project manager of this person calling my husband because they broke something on the backend of the membership site. So, and again, it wasn't that big of a deal, but I just don't want to have to sacrifice my own wellbeing. For that, like Kate Northrup has a really great quote. I'd really try to kinda like live by, which is body first business second. So that's like the, that's like a non-negotiable. Diane: Yeah. I think if more people could. Embody that one before they had to learn that one, I think entrepreneurship would just be a much happier place okay. Second question. What's The worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've been given as an entree? Melissa: I don't know that it's necessarily an advice. But it's thinking I have to do things. A certain way, because that's how someone else did it. Like I've paid, you know, five figures to be in programs where I'm learning, what's working in the launch world for them, but I'm using that in hopes that I'll get the same type of results as them in my launches when I haven't been launching as long as they have, and I don't have as big of a team that they have. So I think it's. Almost like hearing advice from people on hearing, what's working for them and then setting the expectation that it's going to work the exact same way from me and that, because I've achieved this specific experience as a service provider, it'll happen for me right away when I'm watching digital offers, which hadn't been the case. Diane: Yes, that's such a dangerous one. I think it's perpetuated a lot in testimonials as well. It's this person did my program and they made this much money, but what they don't tell you is that they had a fiery hot audience. Who'd been begging for the product for the last two years who threw money at them. And you're the little newbie business person who has three people on their email list. And two of them are family. And now you're like, well, I don't understand why I didn't have a like 10 figure launch Melissa: The first program I ever launched was a mastermind for designers. I did it by doing weekly webinars and I sold my first thought to the mastermind without a sales agent with 30 people online. There was an application link I had, there was a PDF. I had design because I didn't know, like I didn't want to do the whole sales page so they know how beautiful project it is until I had that like one conversion, but like, I mean, like again, you can sell things without a sales page, but I think it's just really setting expectations for yourself and understanding that launching in this digital offer, you know, online marketing world is a long-term gaming. You may not see the results you want or think you should overnight. And I think that I needed to really lower my expectations. Oh my goodness. Like my offer converted and I made money, like, but I was still felt like, I felt like I should have been, you know, made more. Even though I'm like so incredibly grateful. And I looking back, like, I, I look at that and I was like, girl, like, well, I don't understand why you were thinking. I mean, I understand why it was, but now I'm just like grateful. Anytime, you know, I get any type of sale, whether it's $37 or, you know, 10,000 for a sales page, Diane: Yeah. I think it's so easy to look at somebody else who has had incredible success at something who's teaching them, you know, three point plan to do exactly the same thing. And it's really easy to get caught up in that and caught up in the emotion of it and think this is the solution and I'm going to run with it. Rather than like you said, taking a step back and being like, whoa, like 10 people gave me money for something I've never sold before. And celebrating that you're like, I can't believe only 10 people bought this thing. Melissa: Yeah. And I mean to think about that, to get a conversion with no sales page, no audience email us. Like to me, that is amazing. I am so elated. I am, I still send this person work because she was one of the first people that ever join my program. You know what I mean? It's like, it's very, it's very, I'm very grateful. Like now looking back and I was still grateful then I just really thought I would have gotten, you know, a bigger launch number, quote unquote. Diane: Yeah. hard lessons to learn. Unfortunately. Wow. This has been super helpful to me. I always joke that, I feel like my podcast episodes are like mini private coaching sessions for me, but I'm sure lots of other people feel the same way about sales pages as me, or felt the same. I'm very free by the color blocks now, instead of having to find photos that fit backgrounds and et cetera. So with the best place for people to have a chat with you, I know people will probably going to want to show you their sales page or show you some like horrendously tiled testimonial section that they found where's the best place for them to come. Melissa: My favorite social media platform to hang out on these days is Instagram. And my name over there is Melissa Berkheimer. And you can send me in DM it's me in there. Very moment that might change in the future. But send me yourself page. I'd love to take a look at it or ask me your questions. I always ask my family like a ton of questions my whole entire life, and they really love me for it. That's me being sarcastic. And so I love to like kind of give back by answering people's questions. Diane: That's such a sweet offer thank you so much for this. This has been amazing. Melissa: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm very grateful.