How To Find A Mentor (And What They Can Teach You) with Kelsey Chapman

Diane: Hey, this week's guest is my good friend and my business cheerleader at Kelsey Chapman. I have asked her to come on and chat all things mentors today, because I feel like everyone needs support in their business. But especially if you have big dreams that you're looking to get done. Hey girls, welcome to Kelsey: hi. Thanks for having me. Diane: Let's start with a little bit about your business journey. Kelsey: Well, you've been around since close to the beginning. I got started in this online space because I wanted to have a blog that people actually read. My long-term goal was to write books. I've dreamed of being an author since I was a little girl. I, still have Google docs from college. Or maybe they were Microsoft word documents. Cause I don't know if the cloud existed when I was in college, I still have these Google docs of writing samples of things I thought were so profound that are deeply embarrassing now. But that in college, I mean I would sit on a blog. And count these girls sidebar ads back in the day when Blogspot was the thing. And I would sit there and be like, okay, she has one medium sized ad, six large size ads and 12. Small ads and based on her about page, this is the cost of these ads. And if every ads slots full this, girl's making $72,000 a year. So I've always also been fascinated with how people have monetized the writing side of things. And so, six years ago I dove in, I was kind of finding myself post-college my liberal arts degree was not really Landed me jobs. And so here I was just working, a normal day job and trying to find myself. And so I started this blog online with a friend and knew that we were balling on a budget. Like we could grow this as much as we could break even, but once it started costing us, Money. We're probably going to throw in the towel or if it did cost money, we needed to make it back. And I really started digging into strategy. Okay. How can we get eyeballs on this? Because, we might write the most profound things to ever grace God's green earth, but if no one. Reddit. It was just her journal, which is great, but I wanted something more than a journal. So we really dug into growth strategy and like growth strategy centering around elbow grease. We had no money, but we had time. And so we really dug in and Facebook seemed a little. Complex. And like you needed to have some ad dollars to put behind it. Pinterest felt like a dragon, the tame and Instagram felt super malleable. Like I think I can figure this out. I think this is also where our readers are, so let's go for it. And within a year we built an audience of 40,000 followers. We had about 10,000 page views a month. I mean, we were pretty pleased with what we built. With no money. So that kind of is what sent me down digital marketing rabbit hole, and later exposed me to kind of online service-based businesses and e-courses, and ever since I just have been deep down a rabbit hole and never looked back of all things, digital marketing, and so. For me the through line and the various offers I've had over the years, I ran an Instagram agency for a while, until it became really clear. You have to run ads to grow now. And now I run a podcast pitching agency. The through line there for me is I really believe each of us carry a unique message into this world. But not all of us have $600,000 to put behind Facebook ads a year to get it out there. I mean, I look forward to the day where we can all do that. I really believe big for all of us, but I'm also super practical. So how can we get our messages out there with elbow grease or a more. Practical budget. How can we, how can we build our platform? Expand our, reach, get our message in front of the right people. By bootstrapping it, or by spending a, like I said, a normal amount of dollars, not $600,000 of ads a year. So that's kind of the through line for me is how can we get your message in front of more people? My end goal ended up happening. I finally got a book deal because of the platform I built. And so that lights a fire under me, even more to help people get their message out there in front of the right people so they can continue expanding their impact. Diane: So I know that your book what they taught me, follows your journey and looking at how you had lifestyle mentors, and in business mentors. And I know, from having been attached to your business journey, that you've had some pretty rollercoaster moments in your journey, which I'm fairly sure inspired some of the stories in your book, but let's take a step back from it. I want to dive into like, how do we find mentors and how do we ask them? But I want to start off with okay, what is a mentor? Like how do we think of a mentor in the business online space? Kelsey: So, if I look back to even being a teenager, like I have always been hungry for relational investment. I've never expected Oprah to be my mentor. I just looked around and was like, who's crushing it in the sphere of influence. I already have. And what can they tell me so I can get to where I want to go faster, not from a transactional mindset, but just what can I learn for them? I can learn something from anyone. I love to learn something and share it with everyone. And so I looked for women who would do that for me. And so that's just been very natural to who I am for as far back as I can remember. But when I got into this online business space, I also. Had the same frame of reference. So I started looking around, I didn't really know where to start finding a mentor. I mean, you can find a coach on every corner these days, but one day I was just scrolling and. One of our shared mentors, Amber floats through my feed and something about her essence really spoke to me. And I saw that she was building a lifestyle that aligned with my values, like what she was doing, aligned with what I wanted. So I invested in her program, I feel like in life, It's not really appropriate to pay your mentors. Like that would be weird when you, really love how your friend raises her kids. And you're just starting to have kids to pay her to be your mentor, take her to coffee or help her fold her laundry. But in business, it's very appropriate to pay your mentor because they only have so many hours in the day. And so if they're spending some of that investing in you, they probably got to make. Their own ends meet. And so it's appropriate to pay them for their time. They're also helping you shortcut the distance to your own success. So like it's a win, it's a total win all around. So I will gladly pay a professional mentor to invest in me, to shortcut my process to success and to block off that time on their calendar so they can give it to me. Diane: So would you say then the difference between hiring a coach and paying a mentor is more that relationship of seeing this person is where I want to be. Versus this person has skills. I want to Kelsey: I would say that sums it up extremely well. I think mentors can be seasonal but I really do advise you to have some longer format mentors who have their eyeballs on your life for a little bit of a longer season. I might work with, a messaging coach for three months and I, really don't consider them as much. A mentor because they're not speaking into my life in a longer format. I really appreciate that an a mentor can, can build relational equity in the mountain, top moments with me so that they're there to speak into the Valley moments. And like you said, My business as with most online businesses has had to pivot and adapt and I've had to land on my feet fast. I went from $20,000 months to zero overnight when the Instagram algorithm changed. And so Amber had been with me through everything I built to get to the $20,000 months. And then she was able to help me pivot because she knew enough about me. She knew what I thrive doing and what I totally fizzle out on. She had enough relational capital built there to give me solid advice from kind of a holistic bird's eye view versus like, I've been your messaging coach for three months. I'm going to give you some advice, but I don't really know you that well, this is a more of a hard skill relationship with one focus. Whereas a mentor I think is a little bit broader. Diane: I think it's interesting trying to picture that differential for people, because I feel like mentor is becoming a similar word to coach So where people have grown tired of the word coach, the word mentor is now kind of coming into being. And if I think about my mentors in my current space, in my past corporate life, I think what you say about relational capital is very strong that these are people that above and beyond whatever the professional relationship is above and beyond what I have paid them to be. It's a feeling of. I would drop everything if they asked me to help and that they would be there in a heartbeat if my life exploded and they would be the first people to celebrate you. But I always feel like that real crux of it comes in. When you have that relationship where you don't feel, I can't pick up the phone or like, my call is next Tuesday at 3:00 PM. I'm going to have to just breathe into this until I can get hold of you to explain how my personal life has exploded into my Kelsey: totally. I agree that mentor and coach have become synonymous and I am my book. I even tried to differentiate that. It just feels like mentor is a little bit of an additional step beyond the format of a coach. And sometimes you're paying someone for the role of a coach. They don't necessarily want to be your mentor, and that's okay. I have people in my life who invest in me and I learned from, and who have given me so much value, but they're not really a life mentor. They just coached me for a season. And so I think there is a bit of a differentiator there with that relational component. And I think. One way to take your relationship with a coach beyond that, into that of a mentor is to serve them. I, with Amber , for instance, back with my Instagram agency, you better believe I was like, you invest so much in me. Yeah. I pay you for that sometimes. But. I still want to give back to you because you have changed my life by investing in me. And you have gotten me to where I'm going faster. So what can I give back to you? This is what I'm good at. I'm good at digital marketing. I'm really good at Instagram. Can I help you? And I think when you invest back in those who are investing in, you. They are all the more bought in investing in you Diane: I feel like the relationship of mentor mentee is one that develops versus one that is forced, in corporate, it's very common to be like, meet your mentor. And you're like, I know nothing about you except your one corporate grade ahead of me. But I feel like in our space, You would start working with someone as a coach and that relationship will either end, as you say, you will get to a point where it stops being what you need, or become something more. I think that tipping point of whether it grows into mentor mentee relationship is very much on us in the main T position. Kelsey: My experience is not unique in the sense of, I watched my friend work with a totally different coach. Totally different niche, $30,000 mastermind paid for it. And then showed up, gave really thoughtful input really on, the one-on-one calls. She also gave back to that coach, that coach was interested in writing a book in the traditional publishing grout. And so this friend was like, let me tell you everything. I know that got me, my book deal. And I think that generosity and that reciprocal component in the relationship is what took it to the next level of like, wow, As a coach, I'm so used to pouring out. No one really gives back to me, but, but when someone generously gives back to me, even though they're paying me, they don't have to, that stands out and it makes me want to invest more. When you do give out of overflow of what you're good at, I think you attract people who want to invest more in you. Diane: one gets started. Simply walk up to the person and be like, Kelsey, I have decided you are my new mentor. Congratulations. Kelsey: because that would be weird, but it depends on I think your industry. So you come from corporate and I think a lot of times you're assigned, or you might notice someone that is carrying something you. Would like to carry or for a little more tactile language, they have reached milestones in their careers. You would like to reach. They have that corner office, wherever in that format. It's not as appropriate to pay them. It would be more appropriate to take them to dinner, maybe a nice dinner. Come with a game plan and communicate your game. Plan to me if you're looking at a high level, someone who charges pretty decent prices for coaching, they're not going to be your mentor for free. So you need to pay for their program and take the relationship to the next level within the context of that paid program. Because at that point you've got skin in the game. You've showed them. You're not there to just pick their brain. You're there to. Grow to contribute to their community but it is going to start with you paying most of the time. And from there, you might be able to take your relationship to the next level. If you both feel the synergy. You might get in there and realize, Nope, actually I'm good. After the six months or after these three months I'm done. finding a mentor is like the very worst part of dating at times. There are some myths matched relationships and some duds along the way. And so I think it's that trial and error it's investing when you need to, and kind of reading the room of the level of appropriateness depending on your industry. Diane: So you're initially paying to get in front of them. And then becoming almost that star student, the person who was in the Facebook group, helping other people, the person who responds and masterminding when they ask for feedback, the, showing up to your one-to-one calls, not just thinking about, Hey, what's in this for me, but also considering, Hey, what could I. Help this potential mentor with, and then allowing it to develop or not develop Kelsey: Totally. And if they. If that mentor is not interested in that developing do not make it mean anything about you. You have no idea what's going on behind the scenes of their life. They might be so stretched thin. They don't have room for 10 minutes to take a walk in the day. I've certainly had mentors say no, or even worse mentors commit and then be totally flaky. But if you keep showing up, I really believe you're going to find your people. Diane: Okay. And then we found out mentors we have a lovely relationship. How does that relationship. Continued, like what is the mentor mentee relationship? Because what I fear is people listening to us talking about this relationship. I'll picturing the person who has the thing they want, and then they're going to go and be like, how do I recreate your life and your business for myself? And actually you may be core value aligned with them, but you have very different businesses Kelsey: totally. Amber is more business strategy than me but. I actually don't want a mentor with the exact same business. She's business strategy and planning. I was Instagram platform development. But I formatted my gramophone in the same way she formatted hers and she just let it shake out that I do agree with on, for the rest of my life. No, I didn't. I did it once. And so I think the right mentors too, will. Here your values and pull them out of you. But I think going into any mentoring relationship with the aim to replicate their life is weird. And you might have some gaps in your personal development. If you find yourself wanting to do that, like you might want to find that therapist, but if you also gravitate towards. wanting a mentor to show you the next steps to take. I just encourage you to reformat your mindset, to allow them to step in, to help you find your way, but not expect them to give you a roadmap for the way. Diane: Let's talk a little bit about the book I've listened to the first chapter, which was super fun for me so each chapter is a different mental and a different lesson Kelsey: Yeah. So I often say your mentor is not going to be crushing it in every facet of life like that. I don't look for, I didn't look for that in a spouse. So how can this random woman investing in me? Be perfect in every area, my husband and I don't agree on everything and I don't think we ever will. So how could I agree on everything and mentors teaching me? And how could I expect her to be perfect in every area when I'm certainly not. I looked for women who were crushing it in one department or maybe two or three, but I didn't expect or disqualify her that maybe she didn't have a career, even though that's what I wanted in life. Maybe she chose to not pursue that route. And she is very fulfilled and happy even though that's my route and my path, but I can still learn from her and how she manages friendships. She's an amazing friend and I want to continue being a better friend for the rest of my life because people around my table is. One of my top three values. And so I looked for a mentor in specific departments and at the time I didn't really realize I was looking for a mentor in specific departments are kind of stripping away the idea of them having it all together. I just naturally did. And now that I'm reflecting and putting it into a book, I realize, Oh, there's a lesson here. I didn't need her to be everything. I needed her to be one thing. And I, I just wanted her to teach that one thing to me and I had to the meetings, but off the bones, if she shared something, not aligned with what I wanted out of life, I can move on from that. That's fine. We'll carry on the conversation. Diane: It's still up to you, what you take and Kelsey: Totally. And when I, I say about my role as a mentor, I was, I got the transparency that a friend often gets the extra layer of detail that a sister often gets. And the bluntness that a mother often gets Diane: It's an interesting dynamic. So where can people get their hands on your books available now for pre-order? When does it come out efficiently? And I know you have like a bunch of goodies for people. Kelsey: So can you can. Snag my book@kelseychapman.com slash book. I'm sure it will be linked up here. It's linked up on my Instagram. If you can find me there and you get lots of goodies when you pre-order, it's out February 9th. But if you go ahead and pre-order, you also get my course dream to done. The tagline of my book is recognizing the mentors who will take you from dream to done, because I really believe when we invest in one another We reach our dreams faster. And so my program during the den comes with it, a gold foil print, radiant manifesto, how to find a mentor workshop. I mean, we've got all kinds of goodies. Diane: so To finish up, I always ask all of my guests the same two questions. The first one is what is the number one lifestyle boundary you have for your business? Kelsey: I would not sacrifice my relational connection. With David and our friends and our family for my business. So for instance, I built an agency that took over my life or four years and because I was my own bottleneck and couldn't let go and could never get out of it. I didn't get to live out any of my values for those years. I would have more freedom and time if I went and worked a day job. So why am I doing this? I'm miserable and not present. So that's a boundary. Now I will not create anything that causes me to live a lifestyle where I'm not present to the people around me. Again. Diane: Okay. My final question. What is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you have ever got as a lifestyle entrepreneur? Kelsey: The idea that a formula is going to make you a million dollars overnight and all the sales page messaging, not all 80% of sales pages feel this way. Follow my unique formula and you were going to. Make a million dollars have your first seven figure year or whatever. And I just think like, they're also not telling you, they spent almost seven figures for this launch that made them seven figures, like read between the lines. Like they might be saying that and it might technically be true, but is it really true? I think that's a big thing in this space. And I mean, with what Diane does I love wealth dynamics that Diane can facilitate with you, but we're all wired differently. So I think it's easy when we get into this space to think. Well, because that expert said, this is the formula that you'll success. Then it must be what yields success, but it might yield success with their unique personality and their unique skill set and their unique wiring. And you might try that same exact formula and try that same exact hat on and being miserable and broke. Diane: Awesome. Definitely go and grab the book. Pre-order it. You can listen to the first chapter on the website, you'll get a real feel for who Kelsey is and how she shows up. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to catch up with you and chat with you. Kelsey: Thank you for having me, Diane. And it's so fun to get, to come be a part of your seniority and what you're building. Thank you for having me. I have lived.