The Business of Thinking About Business with Cat Paterson

TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED ​​[00:00:00] Hey, Hey, today's guest cat Paterson, user psychology to help women rewire and unlearn the behaviors that get in their way. And today she is going to help us figure out how to do that for ourselves. Hey cat, welcome to the show. [00:00:11] Cat: We are so excited. Diane and I were just having a little conversation there that we finally get to meet online and have an actual conversation. [00:00:21] Diane: I know we've known each other in the online world for so long and chat all the time on social media, but never have been face to face. This is very exciting. So Cat, why don't we kick off with a little about your business journey so far? [00:00:34] Cat: Sure, so I am in my business birthday of 10 years this year. But you know, to survive for 10 years, I was just reflecting on it. I thought 10 years is… That's something to be proud of. Yeah, that's something to be proud of, right? So, but yeah, it's just been, it's been a bit of a, how would you call it, a squiggly career. And ten years ago I bit the bullet and thought, Do you know what? I'm just going to work for myself. Although I have discovered that my boss can be an absolute bitch. And not let me go for lunch. [00:01:03] Diane: Mine, too. She's really mean. [00:01:06] Cat: Yeah, totally mean, but but yeah, get to call the shots, get to have a nap in the afternoon. And it's not all, it's not all, you know, roses, smelling the roses all the time, but yeah, 10 years and I'm still going. [00:01:19] Diane: Amazing. So you said something on Instagram and I was like, let's talk about that. And you spoke about people's thinking patterns. [00:01:28] Cat: Hmm. [00:01:28] Diane: So first of all, what is a thinking pattern and why is it important? [00:01:35] Cat: Yeah. So thinking patterns. So let me, let me rewind a little bit. So I am so sick to the back teeth. of watching social media tell me that if I get up at five in the morning, go to the gym, do a workout, drink green juice, do all the things that I'm going to be successful in business. And you know that might work for some people, but actually what's the old phrase? Success leaves clues. And [00:02:00] thinking patterns are the thing that make you successful. So what do I mean by that? Thinking patterns are, yeah, let's get back to basics. If I'm frightened of a spider even if it hasn't bit me at any point in my life, and every time I see a spider and I scream and I shout and I wail because there's a spider, guess what I'm doing? I'm reinforcing the story that spiders are the epitome of all evil and I'm going to be terrified of them. Now, that's pretty not useful in Scotland. because we don't really have poisonous spiders. It may be useful in a place like Australia we've got poisonous, right? So, so [00:02:44] Diane: are they bite you, you could die. Yes. Very useful Okay. [00:02:47] Cat: very useful to kind of make sure that you're still living. But so it's a story and it's a narrative. So when we think about thinking patterns, we're reinforcing our little neural networks and our minds. And sometimes that services. And sometimes that does not serve us. Does that make sense? [00:03:06] Diane: Yes. So they can be good or they can be bad, depending on how we've set them up. And I guess how we reinforce them on a regular [00:03:15] Cat: And it's the reinforcing, so let's apply it to business. I am rubbish at public speaking. I can't do my numbers. Oh, I forget people's names. I've got a poor memory. I'm really shit at this, crap at that. All of these things. And actually we're reinforcing, now I want to caveat that because I get that in this conversation we can't cover all eventualities of neurodivergence, what I'm not saying to people who are dyslexic is go and just learn to read it will be really easy, I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is when we begin, we get really super clear about our thinking patterns, it can unlock something that's going to help us grow as people, develop as people, but [00:04:00] also helps our business grow exponentially. And I know that's like what, that's a leap cat, but actually when you get really clear on what systems are running in your brain, it's just software and there's glitches in the software. But when we understand the glitches in the software, then we can tell ourselves new stories and useful narratives and strengthen the right neural networks that serve us rather than working against us. [00:04:22] Diane: Okay. So. Where do they come from to start with, you know, like I am one of the people who will squeal a little at a spider, but having grown up in South Africa, where some of them are a bit more poisonous, you know, fair enough, but I, you know, will gently nudge them outside, shut the door and the windows and hope they never come back. [00:04:44] Cat: Yeah. [00:04:44] Diane: But is it something that's. Cultural? Is it something that's, we've got it from our parents who maybe also don't like spiders or whatever? Is there some unconscious bias built into it? Like, what were the building blocks of that thinking pattern? [00:05:02] Cat: All of the above. All of the above. Yeah. So, and this is the thing, because if you think about it as a kid, if you've got a parent who's maybe frightened of something, you're not aware that you're picking that up. There's a subconscious thing. And actually I was watching a really interesting kind of documentary the other day about if you think about it as a woman is pregnant and has a baby in their womb, the baby's already formed the eggs for their children if they have them. So if you think about the DNA is just floating about in there and then you've got the cultural norms. You've also got You've got society, you've then got belief systems. And the thing is, belief systems in our learning are just thoughts that we keep on thinking again, and again, and again. So, it comes from all of those angles. It's not one thing, but all of those, as you put it, building blocks create that thinking pattern [00:06:00] for us. And we've got two systems that are running simultaneously. So we've got a conscious system and we've got a subconscious system. And the conscious one is the, I am very aware of what I'm doing and I can see what's holding me back, but do you know what's familiar? And I'm still going to think that way. And then we've got a whole load of subconscious stuff. that's just having a game in the background, that it's this software, this virus software, that's running in the background that we're unaware of but it's still adding to the story and it's still strengthening the neural networks and it's, the point is, about thinking patterns is one, to become aware of them and two, you can actually undo them. [00:06:43] Diane: mean it all just sounds so simple. [00:06:45] Cat: It is so simple! [00:06:46] Diane: years and decades of conditioning and now I will look at a spider and be like, you are not poisonous, you will not kill me. I am not afraid of you. Please don't touch me. Please don't touch me. Please don't touch me. [00:06:58] Cat: Yeah, but to be fair, you've absolutely said, for you, I would still be holding on to that, they're kind of poisonous, [00:07:06] Diane: I'm even worse with snakes. Don't get me started. I'll have, I'll get so heebie jeebie down. I won't be able to continue. So do you feel like. We come into business with some of those thinking patterns that are going to hold us back in business. Or do you think as we start to build our business and we come into the business environment that creates new thinking patterns for us that potentially hold us back or push us forward? [00:07:33] Cat: Yeah, I think, I think we're always going to come in with our own set of thinking patterns. So, I left the world of work. I worked in a very covert world, chasing down very bad people, shall we say. [00:07:47] Diane: More interesting than any of us, but she can't talk about any of [00:07:50] Cat: Yeah, you can tell, you can tell I'm stumbling over that, you know, if I told you I'd have to kill you kind of a thing. [00:07:56] Diane: hehe [00:07:58] Cat: So if you think about it, we've all got [00:08:00] what's called a, you know, a method of operating or modus operandi. So thinking patterns are just part of that. So then if you think about it, if you're in a, if you're in a nine to five job or a corporate career and then you apply business new thinking patterns on top of that and all the things that we have to learn about, we suddenly have to learn about building an audience and All the tech that goes along with creating emails and how to pitch for investment. All of those things come into the mix. But you've got an opportunity to maybe be aware of that thinking pattern at the very beginning of that, rather than letting it happen to you. [00:08:36] Diane: So let's, let's take this in two different ways. Let's say you were once told by a teacher that you are absolutely rubbish at numbers, okay? And you're now in a business, chances are, like, if that stuck and it became ingrained and you convinced yourself your whole life that you're rubbish at numbers, you're probably not looking at your numbers, right? Versus you've come into business, you have to learn. To sell. That's a good one to use, right? To sell yourself. 'cause a lot of people have never had to sell themselves or sell their product before, and you're not super successful at the beginning. And you start to think, I'm rubbish at sales. Okay. How do we spot and tackle those two different thinking patterns given one is super ingrained and one, I guess is probably more current, but probably more painful. I [00:09:31] Cat: so again, I'm going to go back to the, the point self awareness when you understand this, it's kind of you spot it, you got it and you can, you can't unsee it once you're aware of it. And it's really interesting that you use the numbers example and let's face it, we've all had those experiences of teachers at school who have told us that we're not going to grow up to be. anything in particular and it's really not useful just to shout out to all the teachers. That is not useful to do that. Words have meaning, words have impact. But funnily [00:10:00] enough the numbers think I'm terrible at numbers but I didn't discover until my 30s that actually I get diagnosed with dyscalculia which is the easiest way to describe it as numerical dyslexia. So I, I failed accountancy, I failed arithmetic at school and of course you are rubbish at numbers. Now I, I did carry it. I now have a label for it. But the first thing I did in business was I am terrible at the numbers I am going to pay somebody or find somebody that I can either swap my skills with that's going to help me do the numbers and I'll help them with something that I'm absolutely brilliant at. So when we think about our zone of genius there's a reason that we're brilliant at some things and we're a reason that we're rubbish at other things and it's how we leverage that with like minded people in business and people are really, they're really generous in business. You know, they're really wanting to help you and really want to see you flourish. So I think that's one aspect of it. You can, if you can delegate and you can, financially you can delegate. Smashing. If you can't find somebody to support you and swap. There's mentors. There's, there's all loads of ways that you can do this. [00:11:03] Diane: like you can pay anyone to do anything for you in business, [00:11:06] Cat: If, a good friend of mine said years ago, if money solves the problem, just use the money. [00:11:11] Diane: why waste all the heartache and, and, and all the stress, [00:11:14] Cat: Yeah. [00:11:15] Diane: but it, do you feel like that's a case of, so in your case, you. told you about it numbers, you had this belief, but then discovered that actually there's a reason for it and versus somebody who's been told that they're bad at numbers and uses it as a reason to never look at a spreadsheet. [00:11:32] Cat: Yeah. Yeah. And I think in business we know that when you go into business there's no IT department anymore. There's no sales department. There's no HR department. And money magically appearing in your account every month. Oh, the good old days. [00:11:49] Diane: oh, salaries. [00:11:51] Cat: Oh, oh, salaries. I'm just having a moment of, oh, oh, [00:11:58] Diane: to our corporate days [00:12:00] of ease. We're forgetting, we're forgetting all the troubles [00:12:03] Cat: I'm forgetting it all, yeah. Rose coloured glasses. But the reality is, yeah, when we know that, so again I think when you've got the self awareness and you understand what's happening, you can do something about it, right? So if I didn't have the label that I then subsequently discovered I had dyscalculia, I would still have believed I'm rubbish at numbers. And there's an easy way to test it, just do some stuff with numbers. And the thing is, you can be good at it, but just because you're good at it, doesn't mean it's going to be the thing that lights you up, so I would always advocate for as soon as humanly possible in business. Delegate stuff out. Get people in your team, whether it's a virtual team or a real team, whatever that looks like, get the people who are brilliant at what they do and bring them to the table because you're brilliant at what you do and you can operate in a place of strengths and we know about strengths and being in flow and all of those kind of things, but actually bring those other people to the table and bring their thinking patterns to the table [00:13:03] Diane: Well, let's talk about like team thinking patterns, right? How do we create or maybe leverage collective thinking patterns? Because there must be a case where everybody in the team thinks spiders are terrifying. So no one's gathering any evidence to the contrary. We're all just agreeing with each other that spiders are terrifying. Or there's the opportunity that. Two people think spiders are terrifying and one doesn't or vice versa. And then that can facilitate some kind of discussion. [00:13:37] Cat: Yeah. [00:13:37] Diane: How do we recognize other people's thinking patterns, I guess is my question and then leverage them in a team. Oh, [00:13:46] Cat: so it's almost like you've you've seen the prep that I did for coming on this conversation, Diane. This is amazing. So, [00:13:59] Diane: [00:14:00] another sale or marketing or whatever? [00:14:03] Cat: it's amazing how we can just draw those threads. [00:14:05] Diane: It's very visual and very visceral for me. So that's why I keep coming back to it. [00:14:10] Cat: It's like, who knew we were going to talk about spiders? Apologies, I've probably just traumatised you in this interview now. So thinking patterns, so let's think about that in team. So one of the, the containers, if you like, so if we think about thinking patterns that are also containers within which we can do our thinking, let me explain what I mean by that. So there are mental models and it's basically just a way and a process of being able to clarify your thoughts and to think. better because the brain works better when it's posed with a question. So you're absolutely right, you're all sitting around a table, you're all part of the same team, we've all decided that actually spiders are really scary and could kill you, you know, if they're poisonous, and we're not getting into a problem solving kind of thinking process at that point. And ironically, again, education and teachers, who are a lot of my friends and family are going to hate me if they listen to this. Our education system, certainly in the UK, have Squashed out what what's called first principles thinking so first principles thinking is a container to think within and what first principles thinking means is let's not jump to the solution folks let's uncomfortably sit with the question and the problem and that's really uncomfortable because most of us are rewarded within our careers to solve problems that's what you do you sit down at your desk you switch on a computer your job is to solve problems And so emails do the things. That's what we're rewarded for. We're not rewarded for I'm leaning back in my chair. Yeah, I'm just going to apply some first principle thinking for the next two hours. [00:15:43] Diane: I'm just going to sit here and think it's going to look like I'm staring into space, but I am working very hard. [00:15:50] Cat: Yeah, so, so we don't give the way society is developed, the way we come out of education, we're not given that space, but actually that's where we get, if we get back to first [00:16:00] principles. And what first principles means is sit with the problem and hold it up to the light and look at all the, all the possibilities. Let me use a real world example of this in terms of business. I'm sending out an email. As a business owner, I've got an email audience list. My deliverability of that is a bit wonky. And nobody's buying my stuff. As a business owner, what am I going to do? Nobody wants to buy my stuff. [00:16:30] Diane: I'm a failure. I'm terrible. I'm going to shut it down. [00:16:32] Cat: I've spent ages on this. This is rubbish. Or maybe it's called the wrong thing. I'm going to spend ages now thinking of a better name for that package or that program or that service. Yeah, that doesn't work. Okay, maybe it's the wrong pricing. Maybe I need to put a discount on it. So there's lots of these problem solving, when actually what's happening is iOS have rolled out a change in how they allow people to see or not see some systems, so I do a lot of work in the public sector and charity sector, their email systems are pants. They're also locked down so that anything that looks remotely suspicious with a signature applied to it is some crazy cyber security thing that they need to lock down. So maybe it's about your emails, just not getting into people's inboxes. So if we solve the wrong problem, we're going to waste hours and hours. And as business owners, we're, we're even more. susceptible to wonky thinking because we're always going to take ownership. It's me, it's my stuff, nobody wants my stuff, I'm going to discount it, I'm going to change the name rather than, oh it's not getting into people's inboxes. But if we'd applied first principles thinking as a team, maybe we would have come up with that answer and that solution. [00:17:49] Diane: So it's kind of going, I have a problem. I'm noticing that I'm thinking all these things about it. What if none of those were true? [00:18:00] What could the problem really be? And therefore what is the solution? And then. in the same way when you're having a brainstorm or a team meeting and everyone goes, the solution is sales, more sales, turn on more sales. It's actually to go, well, do we believe that because that's what we've always done? Or do we have some other ideas in this room from someone who might not be thinking like me? [00:18:24] Cat: Totally. And if we think about things like post it notes. came from First Principles Thinking. Somebody created glue that wasn't very sticky and thought it was rubbish and somebody went, actually that'd be brilliant because that means something can be temporarily moved. YouTube was set up as a dating site. If they'd continued down that path without going back to First Principles Thinking, we would never have had the cat video extravaganza that we have at our fingertips today. Yay! [00:18:56] Diane: baby goat person myself, but I understand where you're coming from. goats and coats is my, is my genre. [00:19:03] Cat: I've learned something new about you today, Diane. [00:19:08] Diane: so, so when we are in our kind of business leader role, and we have a slightly bigger team and we now have like team dynamics in play. How do we help the people in that team understand maybe their thinking pattern and someone else's thinking pattern and how to talk to each other about it, because a lot of conflicts in teams comes from different communication styles. So I imagine that different thinking patterns is responsible for the other 50 percent of the problems. [00:19:45] Cat: So I think, there's loads of profiling tools out there that allow you to look at those strengths and preferences. And for me, it doesn't matter what tool you use as long as you start to look at that. And it gives you, it gives you a third party language. [00:20:00] Rather than Diane's being really, like, dismissive of my ideas, because she's, she's all about, you know, she's an accountant by trade, and she's got all this numbers background, and you know, she's just, when actually, if we respect the differences and we understand. Oh, that's why you're thinking like that. So I think there's, there's a part of that that's about understanding our own strengths and preferences. It's then about understanding our team's strengths and preferences. But then taking that a step further and having respect for those differences and understanding and using a third party language. Oh, I get that because oh, you're an analytical type person or you're an ideas type person. And there's a lot at stake, you know, when you've got the business owner who's leading that, there's a lot at stake for them to be problem solving and driving the business forward. But actually if they can, if they can also hold a space for their team to be, there's a reason they hired them. They should be more brilliant at the things that they're not great at. Hold a space for that and allow that, because it's a bit of storming and norming. You know, the tension is good. the debate is good and useful as long as it's contained and it's not personal. So I think when you, when you take the time to understand who's at the table, who's in the room, who you're working with, you don't need to get on with everybody. Don't need to like everybody. But you do have to have respect for differences. [00:21:29] Diane: Yeah. I think that's, that's so true in that your ability to understand where someone else is coming from. It takes the respect to be able to ask that question in the first place to be like, why do you think that not, that's such a stupid idea, [00:21:43] Cat: Yeah. ‘ [00:21:43] Diane: cause like, no matter what you're thinking in your brain, rather ask the question. But also like if you, the more you know each other, the deeper you know each other, whether that's through you've done profiles and stuff like that, or you're just doing really good team building stuff, the easier it is to not assume.[00:22:00] Someone's like being difficult with how they're thinking about something. Like you and I have completely different backgrounds. We have a lot of similarities, but because I know your background, you coming to the table and being like, well, what if you, what you're thinking is this? And I'd be there with my like analytical, here's what the KPIs are telling me. We just have two different approaches to a problem. [00:22:22] Cat: Totally. [00:22:22] Diane: But I think it's quite hard in the moment to go. Okay, thinking patterns, thinking patterns, thinking patterns, [00:22:29] Cat: Yeah. [00:22:30] Diane: So I assume this isn't a, [00:22:32] Cat: Yeah. [00:22:34] Diane: thinking patterns today and we are all now, quote unquote, cured. I'm no longer afraid of spiders. I swear after this episode, everyone's going to send me every spider meme possible and I will freak [00:22:46] Cat: Okay. [00:22:48] Diane: send all of them. Yes. Goats and coats. So do you suggest that people start with their team by actually just having a conversation about the concept of like, Hey, let's take the next problem and let's all talk about what we think about it without preconception. Like in accounting, if you were doing a plan, we'd call it like zero based planning. You start everything rather than going. It's actually quite good for this time of year. Rather than going what I made last year, plus 20%, which is a really bad way to do planning, you say, okay, I'm going to start from zero. What can I sell? What's it going to cost? And you build it all up from scratch without any of last year's [00:23:36] Cat: That's a perfect, that's a perfect example of, yeah, why would you just… Stick an arbitrary 20%. Yeah, eye rolling. Not enough eye rolling for that. That is just bonkers. And I get it, you know, targets, all the things. But ultimately, yeah, the zero, I love that. So that, I think that's a perfect thing. So I, in the facilitation world, coaching world, I would call [00:24:00] that setting up the learning environment. So, right folks, we're going to get a room today, we're going to explore a different way of doing things, you know, so rather than your, your usual annoying, you know, team building exercises that are not enough eye rolls for that either, you know, I've, I've seen a slightly off piste, I've seen a really funny, I think it might have been Tik Tok or a reel or something, you know, that When they do the, oh, tell me two truths and a lie, you have to guess, and they do it as a team building. One of the comedians stood up and went, I hate you. I hate you. And I hate you. And then leaves the room and I'm like, oh, that's genius. You know, which one is the lie? Which one are the truths? So nobody, nobody enjoys that stuff. Well, facilitators usually do, [00:24:51] Diane: Or like, tell me something interesting about yourself. [00:24:54] Cat: Oh, God. Yeah, you just. [00:24:55] Diane: my worst, [00:24:56] Cat: Yeah, you just want to staple your hands to a runaway horse at that point. You're just like done with that. [00:25:05] Diane: The runaway horse that just happens to randomly be in the meeting room with you. [00:25:09] Cat: Absolutely. You've never been to my meetings, Diane. [00:25:11] Diane: no, no, I don't know. Apparently, I'm definitely coming now. [00:25:16] Cat: But that's the thing, if you set it up for people to say, do you know what, we're just going to do things differently. We're just going to shake things up a little bit, and it would be really good if we had a third party way so that we were not personal with one another because when, when our metal is tested, it's not when things are going lovely that teams… They're all bonding together. It's when the proverbial hits the fan, that's when you want people to really lean into it and work together and, and really respect the differences. And when we understand that, just taking the time to set that up, rather than just, we're now going to do this from, you know, and everybody's like, whoa, whoa, we don't have a clue what's happening. Set it up, set it up for your team. Why would you not do that? People will actually even enjoy their work better and want to spend more time [00:26:00] doing amazing stuff. [00:26:01] Diane: My goodness, and who knows what innovation could come from [00:26:04] Cat: Oh ho ho! Yeah, yeah. [00:26:12] Diane: self awareness, self awareness, self awareness. Do you have a resource that can help people to create a little more self awareness in themselves? Because, you know, as the leader, you kind of want to be aware of what some of your thinking patterns are and have practiced this a little for yourself before you go forth as like the quote unquote expert into your team. [00:26:32] Cat: Yes I do, and I would caveat it with so again, I realise that you, you were allowing me to swear on this and I've been quite sweary with a few things. There's no point in knowing you're a dick if you can't stop yourself being a dick, right? So self awareness, right? So, so self awareness is the first part, then self regulation is the second part, right? [00:26:52] Diane: Gotcha. [00:26:53] Cat: So, so, in answer to your question, yes I do have a self reflection journal. It's basically a lovely plethora of exercises. You can pick and choose, so it's a little bit like a pick and mix. You don't need to follow it in a linear fashion. It's kind of do the exercises that speak to you. That makes sense. And it allows you just a little bit of critical thinking space, because we don't get time for that. Let's face it, life is moving at a tremendous rate of knots, so taking time to pause and reflect actually allows us to speed up thinking, critical thinking, and having a container and a dedicated practice for thinking is the thing that makes you successful, not Not the green juice at five o'clock in the morning. [00:27:36] Diane: Thank goodness, because I hate green juice. Though I am a 5am person, much to everyone's disgust. [00:27:42] Cat: and actually, do you know what? If that's your gig, I admire you, but it's not mine. But, but also, thinking patterns within that are really useful. So yes, self reflection journal. [00:27:51] Diane: Okay, so if you could tell business owners only one thing about how they think, what would that be? [00:28:00] I [00:28:01] Cat: question and I don't know if I've got an answer because I need to think about it. One thing um, You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. [00:28:15] Diane: THe novice has become the master. [00:28:18] Cat: In such a short space of time, 20 minutes, that was amazing. So what would I say? I would just say There's no magic fairy that carves out that time for you. and thinking can look exactly as we, we kind of had a lot of joke about. You know, I'm sitting thinking. I'm not talking about staring out a window and contemplation and not doing it with intention. But, if we continue to move at speed, we're going to miss something critical. And our software systems in our brain are set up to give us wonky thinking. We're going to see more of the stuff that we already believe. So I actually take the time to, to hold something up to the light and look at it in a slightly different way. [00:28:57] Diane: I like that. That's a good like rule for how to spend your CEO time, right? Writing a webinar is not CEO time, but this is, it's going to slide that little pet peeve in there. So to finish up, I always ask my guests the same two questions. First of all, what is your number one lifestyle boundary for your business? [00:29:18] Cat: Oh. Lifestyle boundary. Gotta have a nap. [00:29:21] Diane: Any particular time of day, every day, [00:29:23] Cat: No. Everyday. but. absolutely. [00:29:25] Diane: When you feel like it. Are you, are you a good napper? Like, are you like a 20 minutes and I'm awake and I'm ready to go? Or are you like, if I don't set an alarm, I'm gone for three hours. [00:29:33] Cat: No, I will always set an alarm, but no I'm a pro napper. I'm a nap advocate. It makes you more efficient later on, but I don't have a specific time. I'll just do it as and when. If I hit a wall, I'm like, I'm going to stop. [00:29:47] Diane: Oh, there you go. Permission to nap. I do like, have you ever used Brain FM? [00:29:53] Cat: That's my go to thing, Brain. fm. [00:29:56] Diane: Brain FM, recharge, [00:29:59] Cat: Oh, [00:29:59] Diane: 20 [00:30:00] minutes, set a 40 minute alarm. [00:30:03] Cat: yeah. [00:30:03] Diane: Magic. You wake up, no, no, no grogginess. No, nothing. [00:30:08] Cat: And guess what it does? It taps into your brain. Like thinking patterns. Yeah. No, honestly, that's the thing I've used for years, so I'm so glad you mentioned it. It's fantastic. [00:30:20] Diane: Oh, well, there you go. That's great to great testimonials for brain FM. All right. Finally, what is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've been given as an entrepreneur? [00:30:30] Cat: Oh, charge your worth. [00:30:32] Diane: Oh, [00:30:33] Cat: Oh, we need another podcast episode on that! [00:30:36] Diane: I don't know if we have enough time for how much you and I are gonna both hate this. [00:30:42] Cat: It's like, folks, stop tying up your identity and your worth into a number and actually charge a proper market value for your expertise and your guidance even if you've just started out yesterday. Just stop it. Stop it now. Stop it immediately. And stop listening to people who tell you to charge your worth. Rant over. [00:31:00] Diane: 100%, but I feel like that's one of those thinking patterns that we create as we come into business. Nobody in corporate ever told me to charge my worth. If anything in corporate, they told me I was overpaid all the time, right? Like consistently, year after year, no, you can't have a raise, you're already overpaid, right? Come into business and it's like, charge your worth and it's like, well, what am I worth? Am I worth anything? No one will pay me. Oh my gosh. I'm worth nothing. No one will open my emails. I'm worth nothing. It's, it creates that, that thinking for people to then undercharge and then to also completely overcharge because they want to like, they're trying to combat that thinking. [00:31:40] Cat: Total, it's just rubbish. An MD who's starting out in business, or even if you're five or ten years in, just, if that's what you've been doing, stop it. Stop it immediately. [00:31:50] Diane: There you go. You heard it here first. Stop it immediately. Oh, this has been even more fun [00:32:00] than I thought it would be. Where can people find you on the socials to carry on the conversation or see you? Do your thing. She's always renovating her house. It's very interesting. [00:32:14] Cat: God, I know. [00:32:15] Diane: It's an ongoing saga. [00:32:17] Cat: It is an ongoing set. I'm either renovating, decorating, or, yeah, it, it is just live, isn't it? It is show shown behind the scenes. So where can you find me? You can find me at either cat Paterson.com and I'm gonna spell that for people. So CAT and then Paterson with one T because there's a myriad of spellings. And also on Instagram or LinkedIn, so you'll find me on LinkedIn is Cat Paterson. And I think on Instagram, I'm Catpatersonstg because I've also got my alter ego of straight talking ginger, which is another business. [00:32:51] Diane: Can't, can't imagine how that is a an alter ego for you at all. Your alter ego is supposed to be like the opposite of you. Yeah, [00:33:02] Cat: morphed into her, so yeah. [00:33:06] Diane: fair, fair. Oh, this has been so fun. Thank you so much. [00:33:11] Cat: Thank you for having me and I'm so glad we finally got to have a conversation, Diane. [00:33:14] Diane: Yes, face to face, finally.