Why Copytawking Is The New And Improved Copywriting With Christina Torres
TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED Diane: Hey, today's guest Christina Torres is a ride Obi copywriter who believes the copy talking kicks copywriting's. But in helping you find your dream clients and dream business, Hey Christina, welcome to the show. Christina: Hey, y'all I'm so excited. Diane: So let's introduce you by a mini walk through your journey. Christina: Yeah. My journey is all over the place, but if I had to sum it up. I've just probably always been a UX designer and like a customer experience. I don't have a better word, a customer experience whore. I worked in every service job ever. I've been a waitress, I've been a bartender. I've been an executive assistant. I've been an event planner. So it's always been the end user. Insight. And I just couldn't really figure out a way, how to those jobs didn't have a lot of creativity built into them. It was like, here's our food, right? Like the food was the creativity, the event planning, which I wasn't, I was more of the event executing. That was the creative part. And I was like, how can I do the creative part? I want to do the creative part. But I didn't like that create their creative part. So I was like, I have always been really excellent at writing. And I didn't know, other than becoming like a journalist, which didn't make much money. And so I was like, eh, I'm writing a novel. That just seemed very. I have ADHD and I'm a procrastinator. And then one day, I don't know what happened. Oh, I know what happened. Like everyone in this industry, I thought I was going to be a coach of some sort like, this is like when this is like, when it's first started online, digital marketing and coaching, and like all that mentoring, I was for like three seconds and I was like, no, I don't care. It's impacting lives. I think very early on. I noticed a, I noticed my own addiction with personal development, but I feel like before it became like hot, I was like, Hmm. Something about this is hella sketchy. I was like, I don't I don't really want that in my life. I have my own perfectionist problems and I really don't like conflict. So maybe this is not for me, but Backtrack, I didn't get into marketing. Like I kind of always plead with marketing and advertising as a career. But I've talked myself out of that so many times. I didn't see people who look like me in those spaces. I worked in finance after I got out of service. I worked in finance and I was like, I don't care about marketing finance tools because it wasn't, it wasn't targeted for like, it was targeted for other millionaires. So I was like, I don't care if millionaires get more rich, like, I can find a way to like really something about, I really just wanted to get my passion and my career like together. I was like, why does it seem like I have to do everything? So. Separate, like how can we make this all come together? And at the time I was a new mom, I was a single mom. I felt like the way I was approaching Parenthood was very different from the single mothers. I knew my own single mother and then just mothers in my circles already. It was very we call it scene between science, Spanish, but very like shameless. Parenthood. Like, I don't have like mom guilt or like any of those weird. I was like, I don't feel that way. I'm so excited not to be here. Yeah. He's really excited when there's a break too. Yeah. Right. So anyway, I thought it was going to be like this coach, but single moms. And I was coming up with like the program thing with my coach. And my favorite part was writing the copy. Like that was the part that I thought was like so much fun and And he was like, wow, this is amazing. And you, right. Like, she's like, I can hear you. I can hear you talking to me when you write, like, what, while I'm reading this, I feel like this is a conversation. And I was just like, Oh. And I was like, what is it called again? She was like copywriting. And I was like, I think I want to do that. Like literally came up with this whole program and this whole thing. And I think at the same time I was already like drinking the Marie Forleo. Kool-Aid. Right. And I really liked her. Like I was like, she's speaking to me. And I was, I was at that point already starting to like break apart, like why I like things and what is it about? I was already creating swipe files. I have a very obsessive personality anyway. So if I like something, I hold on to everything that person makes. And like I make little swipe things and I follow their history and I go down like this really weird path which is a part of my process called like creep, but I become a creep and I just, all of in their business So I found out that actually Marie Forleo was connected somehow with Laura Belgray. And then I saw Laura Belgrade's content and I was like, this is it. I found my Madonna. So I like literally everything she's ever done, we met, I don't want to lower Belgrade's events. So she was my muse. She was like one of the first people I felt that had. The authentic thing down, like how to convey what that actually means without being like this weird broad term. Like it was like, Oh no, we need, we need all that, all that craziness we need all of it. Give it all to us. You want to curse in it. You want to drop grammar. You want to like, not do a million, one things you don't want to be creative. Like there was just so much room in her realm that I was like, this is how I want to write. Copy. I want to sound like that. And so. I think out of the gate, I probably did everything really wrong as a freelancer. But I was just so excited about it that I was willing to like fail and fail hard. Like I was like pitching people, random things, which I was actually really good at. I was really good at the pitching. I was really gonna make it like. This is how I can help you, blah, blah, blah. Then it just kept evolving, like with each client, it was like, don't want to work with that person again. So he's meant niching and like turning around, but that's kind of how I got to copywriting. I thought it was gonna be a coach. I started writing my own copy and I was like, Oh, you know what? Forget that. I'm not really concerned about that. I think I can, I can make that impact by leading by example. I think it's the copywriting that I'm obsessed with. And I think it's the copy mentoring that I'm obsessed with. Like, I can always, always been really good at seeing, even when people suck the good in them. Like this is no, this is why you're awesome. Like, don't say that again. Yeah. That's a tagline and you'd be like, what? So that's kind of like a, how copywriting came along and just like how. Copytalk came along and that's the journey. That's that's that's the windy journey, right? Diane: So let's talk about copying talking because like it has the word talking in it. So, you know, I'm already engaged. I haven't really liked the sounds like my kind of copy because I'm the blank page of doom girl. I write a lot of my own copy. I'm very comfortable doing it, but I have to start from more the. Here are all the features. And then like, and then work my way up to here's the pain and the excitement kind of pieces because it doesn't flow naturally from me and that's writing my own stuff. So this idea that there's this copy talking, I'm like, tell me a bit more. are you about to change my life? Do go on. Christina: I think the reason writing copy for yourself, myself included is that there is no, it's very siloed. It's very hard to tell if things are like hitting or sticking or that like, there's like these weird aha moments. It's really hard to have those moments. When you're writing it a you're so close to it. You don't really know. What's great about things half the time. What you may think is great is not what your audience thinks is great about it. So for me, it kind of just came along by mistake and I don't even know why I didn't think about it at first. So while I was doing the coach thing, I did write, I wrote a book, right. And most of that book, and I can't even, this is not my. I don't want to say maybe I've coined copy talk, but this is the, the framework is basically the coach was just like, talk it out, talk it in voice memos. Just say, sorry, talk it out. You can transcribe it. And my mind was blown because I am a, like an auditory processor. Like, I don't really, I like writing things down so people, they can journal. I need to talk, like I even talked to myself in the mirror, like if anyone's watched insecure on HBO, Issa Rae raps to herself to like make herself really confident that's to me, like, I like. Talking to them on the daily, or I'll just have ideas and I'll go into the bathroom and literally talk to myself about those ideas. Then they become showered notes. It's always right when I'm about to go in the shower. So he did that. He told us, you know, what. Don't worry about writing, just get it out of your head. If that means a voice memo, then you go and transcribe it. You just organize it. And we give it to the editor and you're done. So I literally wrote a book in like two weeks between writing it on my phone, on the train and then talking into it. And I was like, there's something here. It wasn't doing copywriting at that point, fat like fast forward. You know, as a, as a busy mom I was say, it's like, I can't get to writing the thing. I can't get to writing the emails. I can't get to writing. But I was like, Oh yeah, I can, I can talk it out or I can go live or like something, there was a, there's a lot of things that I think writing, writing already seems very, there's a lot of friction. And having to sit down and write, but there's less friction of having to like, just gab. So for people who are not like natural writers which no one, some people have an affinity for it. Mine kind of came on trauma, but some people have an affinity for writing, but doesn't necessarily like, you mean you're good at writing copy, which is a totally different. CA like writing style. And it actually has less rules than you would a novel or like, Oh whatever, a white paper, whatever really corporate things you've been told to write. That's kind of where it stick. So for me, it was just like, I can just ask myself the questions that my audience needs and I just gab on and gab on. If I have someone to play off of, then my copy, then the copy's already written. And so that's kind of like the process I go with my clients, a, I have not had, I have not had one client who has filled out a copy brief. Well, and then I'm like, Hey, we got on the call and I'm like, Hey, listen, I'm going to ask you the same thing, exact questions. You're gonna be like, I answered these questions already, but there's something about this talking that is going to add like the meat to the bones of that coffee brief. And honestly, I give that to them so they can start thinking about it. Sidebar, sorry, all my clients. I never even look at that because half the time it's what they think they should be answering, as opposed to like, what is the actual answers? And I get to see their face light up or like, I get to see like the responses, how they feel about things and then go down that rabbit hole. It's hard to go down the rabbit hole when it's a document. And you're like editing while you're thinking, while you're writing. It's just like, what is the best thing to say here? And some people are really good at it. Some people are, they can easily write how they speak. Others that doesn't come that, that well, and even there's a difference between writing like sales copy or just like website copy and then writing like your captions. And I want to get, people are a lot more prone to write their captions the way they think, like that stuff that lives in like the fun world of copy, then like the website. And I'm like, no, I want that caption person on this website because it's still. Top of funnel. Like it's still where people find you. If we can get that person to come around, I want that person. I want to feel like I'm having, I'm talking with you. I want to be like, I'm having a conversation with you. You seem to be able to do that in your stories. You seem to be able to do that in your YouTube lives. You seem to be able to do that in your reels. I need them here. I want them over here too. So that's kind of where it comes from. And, and. I am. I don't like saying a self-professed, I'm not a self-professed lazy person. I just don't like doing things for the hell of doing things. Like I need a why and I need it and I need it repurposed, like re I need to recycle. And that's the best thing about copy is that people have to see those messages so many times. Like I'm giving everyone permission to repurpose the same things over and over and over again, because it just makes you more credible. But B you S you stop having to create all the time. Joanna Wiebe, or was now Joanna bane from copy hackers. She's the Oprah. Of like copywriting. Like that's she says something like I, myself were creative, but I love that. She says like, copy's not creative. Like you don't need you don't that's and that kind of gets you off the hook. Like it's not feed of it's messaging, like, and it's the same messaging over and over again. So if you're getting into copywriting copywriting thinking like you're going to be the most creative person in the world got news for ya. it's not going to be that, but I think that gives people permission to be like, Oh, okay. I don't have to be creative. I just need to keep reusing the things I've been saying over and over and over and over again. But I think if you're doing copy by yourself, it's hard and writing copy to yourself. It's hard to do that. So I just find if you have someone to write it with, even if it's just to look at, but if you have someone you're like, I can't do this page as someone to come on a zoom with you. And ask those questions like back and forth and talk about what the product is and why you get excited and then go transcribe it. And it's probably a sales page. It's probably a blog. It's probably your landing page. So that's how I'd like people to approach it. And that's how I approach it because I don't want to read your 50 page. Copy brief. Diane: Yeah, I don't want to write my 50 page copy brief. I think for me as well, when I have an idea, it flows very, very quickly and connects to a multitude of other things very, very quickly. And my hand can no longer keep up with my brain. And so then I get into this thing of if I try to write it, I land up with hedgehog purple tomato, and I'm looking at this idea that was brilliant that I can now no longer remember because it says, you know, hedgehog purple tomato. Whereas if I can hit a voice note, I can ramble it. And at least it's kind of giving me. Some sense of where I was taking everything, you know? But for me, I podcast because my blog sounds nothing like me. My blog does not exist. Let's be clear. A, it was never consistent enough, but when I did write it, because I come from such a long corporate background, Instead of being kind of more story-based and into something, I was like, here are the 10 points I need to get across and let me make this super factual. And then you meet me. And I mean, you know, I'm like the least formal person at every event. I'm the person who like, I don't care if it's cocktails I'm in Columbus. It makes no difference to me. So. It's almost even more jarring because I'm so not my personality. When I try to write. Now, thanks to the Belgray influence my copy tendons to the more snarky irreverent side of things, but boy, that effort for me. if you asked me a question, I could riff on that same topic. That's like taking me three hours to write five words . Christina: Yeah. I kept having these conversations the way Like happy copy hour came along was that I was like, you know what? Yeah, if I talk it out, like I, I would have, as I was talking with someone in their copy brief. I used to call it like the founders. It was like the founders interview and I'm asking them questions. And as soon as they were speaking, my brain just like already starts like compartmentalizing what they're saying. So like, as they're saying something, I'm like, Ooh, that's, that's a, that's an about me page. Ooh. That's pain point number two. Oh. And they see it like happening, like what's going on with your face? Like, Oh my God. I think you just wrote you your whole website in this conversation and they're like, huh? And I go back and I would just like comment and be like, this is pain one. This is objection one. This is about me here. And then I was just like, Oh, what are those questions that I keep asking over and over and over again. And one of those prying, you know, you kinda have to let the conversation go where you want it to go, but there are a few questions that like, you can start asking yourself Before you sit down to write, especially, well, web email is my jam for a long time. I was just like, Oh yeah. Well, because it wasn't cool. Like email and like launch copies, really cool. And copywriting right now. Website is like, because for some, it's hard to like ROI, like people don't really, people don't really have the data stuff in place to like really give you what that ROI looks like. Like it's cool. And it's fun, but what, why, why do I need it again? I guess I need it. Right. So the idea was like, okay, what are those questions that could be like your, about me? So I would ask them, like, what are some of the things you love about your industry? What are the, some of the things you can't stand about your industry? What are some things you just love and life, right? Like just, they bring you so much joy and then like, what are some of the things you can't stand. In life and people would always try to get so like, like existential I'm like, what do you like to eat? No, you don't have to like, I can't. And I, and I'm glad this is that's happening now. Like, I can't stand, you know, whatever toxic launching. I can't stand racism. I can't stand. I'm like, yes, I love that should be in your copy. But like, what are also like, can you not stay on? Like for me, I can't stand carrots. I don't like them. Diane: Oh, I'm even weird. Icon Stan, when my food touches each other. Christina: Right. That is such a nuanced thing, but there's a lot of people who either be like, Oh, that's so crazy. Or I totally relate. And every time they think of food touching each other, they're going to think, Oh, that's, I am. Diane: When I talk about that, because it does come up, I often do it, like if I'm doing a Friday intro thing or whatever, and I will get people, who'll send me photos of their kids plates, where the kid has got like the piece of mashed potato, that's got like four peas stuck in it. And that they're like refusing to eat. And I'm like, yes, I fully support their decision. No, they will not outgrow it. They will never want their peas and mashed potato. But it is funny. It is. never occurred to me that actually. Something. So like minuscule is a connection point for so many people. Christina: right. I think people, yes, they know you're a copywriter, but like, who are you like as a person, right? Like, who am I when I'm not copywriting? Which is probably most of my time, I'm not sitting there copywriting all day. Like that's, it's part of my identity, but it's not all of my identity. If you want to think about it, you want to write copy and you want to copy, talk. So that when people get on a call with you, when people get their deliverables from you, whatever that experience, it's your experience, the whole it's like being with you the whole time. But like, it's very clear on how I work with you and like, what are those boundaries you have with there about that life? So what are those boundaries that I can kind of like start seeing happening? Like if I don't express with people, right. And recently diagnosed ADHD, I don't express to people that may, that's something that may really affect the deliverable in my work. So I want to get it out there without making it fun, right? Like, so ADHD is my superpower, because if you're a website, can't keep my attention from more than like, just think about the average present. Everyone is easy, easily distracted, but like, if I get really frustrated about the UX of your design, then I can, we can fix that with copy. Or I can start thinking about like, why we need to do those things. If people don't know that about you. That may be really helpful or maybe someone also has ADHD. So they know that your process is probably going to speak very nicely to someone who is like, Oh, 5,000 things to fill out. Absolutely not. No, I don't want to work with you. This is how I want to work with you. So those are some of the questions. Why can't you, what can you stand? What can, what do you love? Why are you doing what you do? What is it that you do? What are some of the results? You get them? Okay. Beyond money and metrics. Like what are those other things? Right. Like, what are the things that people are like, like, I don't cry every time I look at something like, what are those things? And you just ask people, you just let them talk. So I would, if you can like write down some of those questions and maybe we'll just share that, we'll put it in the show notes, but what are some of those questions that you can start asking yourself and talking to yourself about Diane: you kind of take the transcript and be like, Oh, I'm talking about a benefit there. Oh, I'm talking about a pain point there. Oh, I'm talking about a feature there. And you kind of pull it into your kind of sales page template or your about page template from there. Yeah. Interesting. I think I would get myself very stuck in the talking phase. I'd be like, I haven't talked enough yet. Let me talk some more. Let me talk to some more people. Who else can I talk to about this? Christina: Yeah. Diane: I'd go hard on the talking and light on the copy. Christina: Yeah, you're gonna have to Cabot at some let's cap these conversations, but it's really helpful. And I think that's not, that's not talked about enough and like marketing and like, I don't think there's ever too, as long as you're doing something with it, I don't think you could ever talk about it. Too much. Because with each conversation, a you're validating the offer for yourself and you're validating like, why you want to do it. It just gets you way more excited when you feel like, Oh, I'm talking like, this is something that happens while you're like coffee talking that you all of a sudden own your credibility. That doesn't really happen when you write, because when you write there's time to think, when you think you start psyching yourself out, like who am I to be like, You're like looking at your framework, this framework is trash and you're like, well, why are you saying that you have enough time to stop and edit your own thoughts? I think when you're talking, you start to like hear yourself and you start to see how passionate you are about that one thing or passionate about that offer, or like, it just, it just, all of a sudden you can hear yourself being so credible and so valuable that it. It does fire off into other ideas and other offers. I can't tell you how many things that like I'm launching now that we're like trapped in some weird conversation. I had someplace that now I'm like, okay, let's go back and let's put all these things on Otter and start organizing in my procrastination. My procrastinate admitting. I was like, Oh, these are great ideas though. So I don't think you could talk about it too much because you need as much. Market validation. So if you're talking to other people and people are getting excited too, that's a good sign. But you also like need to validate for yourself that you feel good about this because at the end of the day it's it's, it's people offer copy. It's not copying offer people. Right. So if you could, if you're talking to people, that box is checked. If you're not sure if the offer is going to work, when, how that box is checked, cause you're talking to people and now you have all that data and all those words, and now your copy is written. So it's just, that's how I have to work because of the way my brain works. And I was like, Oh, this can be helpful for a lot more other people, besides people who write copy for a living like. This is how we're going to get business owners to write their copy and be happy with it. Is that they talk it out. Diane: Not have the, the website shame. There's nothing worse than having someone asked for your website and then being like, this is the link, but like, don't like, I'm busy, right. I'm redoing the copy. It's just such a bad look for an entrepreneur. And we've all been there. Like intense website. Shame is not a good look for any of us. So where can people find more about how to get better at copy talking? Christina: Hop on my Instagram. That's where all the links and that's where I'm copying, talking. Usually that's where I'm brain dumping. You can find me on Instagram at Christina T T E because there was another Christina T out there. And all my links are in there. And if you ever need someone to copy talk, I'd be like, you know what? Christina makes me feel safe . I like the coffee talk with her there's links there too. I have my fun copy to go. And then I have fun, a happy copy hour, and all these things are based on drinks and bars. Clearly I miss going. Wow. Diane: Awesome. I'll be sure to link everything in the show notes. So it's super easy for everyone to find you and to finish up. I always like to ask my guests two questions. First one is what is the number one lifestyle boundary you have for your business? Christina: There has been so many over the past few weeks after of this past year in general, but one that is now like a hard, like a hard, final stop on the road to client boundaries is calls like, there's really no reason for me to be on your weekly team calls or any calls. Like I don't need to be there. Here's how I'm going to give my feedback. It's loom, I'm going to record it. You're going to find all the things, me being on a call. You guys, none of you are going to write this down. So this is how I communicate, do not ask me to be on a call, do not ask me to be on a call. And unless it's super necessary, there are some things where like onboarding and then like handoff I'd like to like see your face and see if you're excited about things and that you're going to actually implement them. Diane: Okay. Finally, what is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've ever been given in your entrepreneurial journey? Christina: I think the worst cookie cutter and mice is. You know what, yeah. Okay. Another thing that happened this year, I think what you need in your business journey and what you need in your mental health journey is so different from like, when you start your business and like you're in the middle of your business and like you're hitting a new stage in your business. So I think the whole, the whole positive mindset, like thing is just like, so. It it's so infuriating and it kind of makes you feel like there's something wrong with you. If you're not feeling positively about something that's happening in your business we might have to check in and listen, because you intuitively may need to give up that part of your business or like this may actually not be working and you're throwing money at something and energy and time that you may or may not get back. Definitely not going to get the time back and something that's not working for you. And I think sometimes that positive mindset pushes people to work on things that are just like. Not in their zone of genius. That really is not the thing. Like I think if, if we went, if we gave people the permission to iterate a little bit more, as opposed to like, yes, I'm a course creator, that's all I do. And to keep grading these courses, or I'm a copywriter, that's all like so many people start as something and then end up something completely different at the end. And, and I think something about like, we're only allowed to have positive mindsets kind of stops that growth. Diane: Well, thank you so much. This has been super fun. I knew it would be you and I could obviously talk for like, you know, the six hours and still not run out of anything to say on this topic. So I want to encourage everyone to go and carry on the conversation with you and Instagram, which is highly entertaining to follow I'll vouch for it. And I thank you so much for sharing. How to copy, talk so openly, for not holding back your like super secret. Christina: Yeah, no, no secrets, especially if you're just talking Diane: I didn't know you talk to yourself in the bathroom mirror. So I feel like we're even better friends than we were half an hour ago. Christina: only child, you know who else over here, but no, I hope, yeah. Everybody starts start copying, talking in the mirror and don't forget to hit record. Diane: Awesome. Well, I thank you so much. I look forward to putting this into practice. Christina: Thank you. Hi. All
Most of us have a close relationship with the white page of doom as soon as we need to write anything for our businesses but what if the reason is that we should be talking instead of writing?
Christina Torres walks you through why you need to write like you talk and how to do it by talking before you write.
If you want people to hear you when they read your copy, you need to use your voice.
We talk about
- Why copy tawking is more effective and more fun than copywriting
- What your website copy could learn from your social media
- The essential copytawking questions to ask yourself to get started
- Christina’s lifestyle boundary for her business
- The worst cookie-cutter advice Christina’s been given on her lifestyle business
Christina (pronouns she/her) is a real talk, ride or buy copywriter for customer obsessed brands and chief creative officer-slash-founder of Run + Tell That, part one woman show, part coffee and collaborative that creates, and consults human to human data driven messaging, edutainment, and accessibility for brands who know they can make money, lives, and ecomm better.
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The information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast episode and article are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article or episode. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article. Diane Mayor disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article.