The One Question Your Copy Must Answer For Every Prospect With Cathlyn Melvin

TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED [00:00:00] Diane: Hey, today's guest Cathlyn Melvin is a messaging expert and a TEDx speaker who uses her theater background to help personal brands develop and deliver their world changing messages, everything from acting to directing to education. She's done it all. So this is going to be an interesting chat. Hey Cathlyn. Welcome to. [00:00:18] Cathlyn: hi. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. [00:00:22] Diane: so first I think we need to talk about your theater background and how that transformed into a business, because it's such an interesting backstory. [00:00:31] Cathlyn: Yeah. So my undergrad degree is in classical theater performance. So I spent my college years studying Shakespeare and Shaw and Ibsen and Moliere and all of those old, dead white guys that we still like to watch and, and read. And when I graduated, I. Took some time to tour. And then I moved to Chicago and I worked there for about 10 years as an actor. And during that time, I also founded a national touring arts education with a company which sent teaching artists all across the states and taught theater and put on plays with kids. So that was my first business before I moved into copywriting. And. I think that one of the comments that I get all the time from my copywriting clients is about. Their level of surprise at how well I can slide into their voice. And I think that that is totally, that comes from my theater background that comes from years and years of being handed someone else's words and needing to embody those actors literally put on other people's shoes. And to walk around and we always say, you know, walk a mile in someone else's shoes, it's the best way to understand them. And I really truly believe that studying performance, studying acting is the best way. For a person to learn empathy. I mean, you can learn empathy through reading and through all sorts of other ways, but like, if you want to embody that, if you want to speed up that process of understanding other people, I think that learning to be an actor is hands down, like the way to go. [00:02:35] Diane: I'm not completely picturing you dressed up as your different clothes. Like around Joel, like house or apartment as you like get on with your day, right? Oh, it's [00:02:46] Cathlyn: Y, I don't do that, but [00:02:50] Diane: Maybe. Now I also think that theater people who uh, the study to deeply, or then have gone on to be in performances have got such a leg up in entrepreneur land because you're used to being just out there. Judged and rejected and [00:03:12] Cathlyn: There's so much rejection, [00:03:14] Diane: Right. And, and just bouncing back from that over and over again. Whereas we, little non-theater entrepreneurs are like, nobody liked my Instagram posts. It's not like nobody likes my performance that I poured my heart and soul into preparing full for like three months or whatever. What is the one thing? From that experience that you wish you could instill more of in business owners? [00:03:42] Cathlyn: That is a really good question. What is the one thing that I wish I could instill in business owners? from theater experience? So when you were working on a play, people think about rehearsal and they think about performance. And those aren't the only elements of preparation before you ever get in the room. There is text work to be done about what your character wants and needs in a scene. The tactics that they're using to get there, understanding. What the potential possible. Other motivations of the other characters in the scene are. And I think that from. My perspective as a messaging expert, that is something that you can absolutely bring into your market research. That's something that you want to find out. What are the motivations of my potential clients? What are they looking for? What pain are they feeling? What do they need? What challenge are they trying to solve? And what tactics have they already tried? That didn't work so well. And that can inform then what you can create as an entrepreneur to solve those challenges, to help them grow, to, to get them, to meet the goals that they've set for themselves. [00:05:15] Diane: and I guess from the perspective of like, what do they need to hear from you in order to. Respond positively to understand what it is, right? Because [00:05:27] Cathlyn: What is that story that you need to tell that is honest and authentic to yourself [00:05:32] Diane: yes, I don't mean manipulatively. [00:05:35] Cathlyn: We're not telling fiction. [00:05:36] Diane: no, no. I mean, but like we all have like a story bank in our heads. And the one that you think is the one that everybody needs to hear might not be the one that they're actually ready to. [00:05:49] Cathlyn: Yeah, I think that a lot of the time we skip, we skip a few levels when we're trying to communicate with our clients and we forget that there's a belief stack that needs to happen, what they need to believe. Number one, before they can believe number two, they need to leave number two before number three, and they need to believe number three before they will be ready to. believe in the transformation and click that Bible. [00:06:15] Diane: I really liked that as a like belief stack. It's very visual for me. I like a good visual, but I think that's an easier one to think of than, you know, when people say, just build know like, and trust, [00:06:27] Cathlyn: right, but how [00:06:29] Diane: And even now I keep coming back to, I've got a new offer and I'll be like, oh no, God, they'll be like, oh, I'm so excited about this neighborhood. I'll just be looking at me. And I'm like, yeah, I did not plan for this. I did not like there [00:06:40] Cathlyn: was, just so eager. [00:06:42] Diane: was no prep. I just ran naked on stage and was like, I'm going to take over, right? [00:06:47] Cathlyn: Yeah. That's not recommended running naked on stage and trying to take over. I feel like that usually doesn't work out super well. [00:06:56] Diane: no. I did actually meet an actress who had just done a completely nude scene, and I remember saying to her, like what preparation goes into that? And she says, most people want to know if I'm embarrassed. I was like, well, I'm assuming not, this is not the first performance, but I'm curious as to like, you know what you do mentally with it. But [00:07:15] Cathlyn: the foundations for, I'm going to go be naked as a character in front of potentially hundreds of people. [00:07:23] Diane: Yeah, so kudos dirt anyway, back onto messaging. So [00:07:31] Cathlyn: Naked actors aside. [00:07:33] Diane: negative actors aside. So, when I think about branding and messaging for me, these have always been. The same thing. And I recently did an interview on brand versus branding with brand being almost what you stand for, your consistent core and branding, being your colors, your fonts, your voice, et cetera. Where does messaging fit in with all of that? [00:07:55] Cathlyn: So I think that you want. Your colors, your fonts, of course, your copy all to reflect your message. So if you are a brand that is, you know, working on a more solemn challenge, if you're, if you're a brand that is, you know, helping people. With eating disorders or, or something like that. Like you may, or grief, you may not want to come out and make your brand colors, bright pink and neon green, because those two stories, those two, that those colors. Make their own message. They say happiness. They say excitement. And while you may be helping your clients get to happiness and excitement and freedom, and some other things that those colors might say, you always want to start where your clients are at. And so. Through your colors through your logo, you still want to have whatever that message is that you want to be sharing with your clients, whether that is in that case, like hope or health or stability, and those types of colors are going to be very different. And the, and the graphics and imagery of a logo might be very different than. A message for an organization that is planning children's birthday parties or something that is like more superficially excitement, happiness, thrills. And so your messaging I think, is woven in and out of all of that branding, even where it might not seem. Like it is the most obvious. And I think that's why it's important. There are so many really fantastic branding experts out there who do take your values, who take your vision, who take the message that you are wanting to share. And their brains work so differently than mine. And they can take those ideas and turn them into something visual. And I seen so many times, like when I, when I was running my children's theater, we worked with the person who became our art director. He did tons of different graphic design for us, whether that was like set design or logo pieces and, and, and, and other collateral. And every time we got something back from him, my business partner and I, at the time we were like, We barely gave you any information and how did you cobble this together and bring it back and make it such a beautiful thing that, that really tells our story. And so all of those elements, I think really do have to go back to, what is your story? What is your message? What, what is that, that idea that is on your heart that you need to get out into other people's minds? [00:11:10] Diane: so would you say messaging starts with fundamentally, what do I want the world to know? what is the, core reason I have the business externally and what I mean by externally as I don't mean it's necessarily your why like your wife or having a business could be a multitude of things. But it's almost like your people's why? [00:11:32] Cathlyn: Yes. And no. [00:11:34] Diane: Ooh. And it depends. I love, and it depends. [00:11:39] Cathlyn: yes, yes. The, your, your people's why is essential to understand and to communicate, but in order to get there in order to get to that, like level of this work, there are multiple levels beforehand. And where I always tell people to start is I have this thing called the purpose peer. And the very foundational level of the purpose pyramid is your personal values. You as the business owner, not your business values, but your personal values. What, how do you want to show up in the world? What world do you want to create? And then moving onto your business values and saying, okay, I've made my list of. Personal values and I've prioritized them so that when things conflict, I already have an idea of what's going to win out. And then you say, okay, those personal values, which of those make sense for my business and are there other values that aren't on my personal values list, but that I should bring into that business. Values level. And from there, by knowing how you want to show up in the world, then you can look at your vision and your vision is imagining the utopia that would be created. If you could live out those values fully. If other people lived out those valley values fully, what is that world going to look like? And then we get to our mission and that's where people usually start is with their mission. But I believe that your mission is Representative of the action steps that you need to take in order to reach your vision. So you can't have a mission before you have your vision. You can't have a vision before you have your [00:13:27] Diane: the mission is the mission is the house. [00:13:29] Cathlyn: yeah. Yes. So I very much encourage people to start with personal values and build their way up that purpose pyramid. And then that's when you can really start sort of complicating the conversation and saying, okay, this is what I want. And this is how I think I can get there. How I think I can get there has to do with who my potential clients are, what their needs are, what their challenges are and what they are willing to believe. it's a lot of steps. [00:14:00] Diane: yes. I have like this like Lego pyramid in my right. And it's a beautiful equal lateral triangle that's been built. And then all the messaging forms in weird shapes and [00:14:12] Cathlyn: like a volcanic eruption. [00:14:14] Diane: exactly. Like, but not as uniform as we try to bring it all together. So you said something there about what they're willing to believe. So now we've built our pyramid and now we're thinking, okay, how am I going to message this to the world? All you then stepping into your belief stack of like, okay, this is what they believe. And they need to have this first. And so do you have messaging for each of the stages in the belief stack? [00:14:41] Cathlyn: Yeah. So for example In my work as a messaging expert, I have two avenues. One is my copywriting work where I write people's websites and their email sequences and their sales pages. And then the other side is TEDx coaching. And with TEDx coaching people, before they come to me before they're willing to say, yes, I am ready. Help me get my TEDx talk. I need them to believe. That they are at that point. And so something that a lot of people struggle with is saying, oh my, my idea isn't ready. Like I have a general concept, but I don't really know what I'm going to talk about. so I need them to believe that that is enough. And so I have a lot of messaging around that in the workshops that I gave and things, a lot of it is this language of, of belief in them that TEDx talks aren't out of reach that TEDx talks are achievable because there are other people out in the world being like, Ooh, it's this big, enormous thing. And not that it's not important. And it's not that it's not impactful. But if you want a TEDx talk, you can get a TEDx talk. And that's something that I really focus on to get people to the point where they're like, okay, I believe I can. I believe my idea is rough enough that now it is time for me to bring a coach in to help me refine that idea and help me move through the whole process. Does that make sense? [00:16:23] Diane: Yes. I think one thing that was interesting. So when we met, I was telling you my story in a very long-winded many directions way, and you were able to summarize that in its kind of essence of these five points, all your whole story, which is really interesting. Cause I've used you all kind of five points. [00:16:41] Cathlyn: Yeah. [00:16:41] Diane: When someone's asked me my story again, and it's, it's a, as much easier, cause I don't feel like I'm boring someone and B, I feel like they're actually like able to repeat my story. If someone wants it, . And I know this comes from intense amount of skill and practice and your ability to read a story and pull the essence out of it. Is there a way that. People like me can do that for themselves, where they have a bank of stories that they feel like this is going to really hit this belief, but I don't have 20 minutes to tell the party version of my story to just pull out the nuances. How do you turn like a long-winded story into a message? [00:17:17] Cathlyn: I think that you're right, that a lot of it is practice. A lot of it is telling that longer version and seeing where people lean in. Seeing if you tell it on social media, what people are commenting that they're resonating with. I think that there. We tend to, when we're talking use a lot more words than when we're writing. So I think that a shortcut might be, if it's a story that you're used to telling verbally, record yourself and transcribe it. [00:17:51] Diane: then when you see that it's six pages long you'll naturally shorten it. [00:17:56] Cathlyn: But you can really go through and you can, you can spend time on it and with it in a different way, when it's written down, when you're just verbalizing it. the words come out and the next thing has to happen. But when it's on the page or on a digital page, more likely at this point, You can look phrase by phrase, you can pull out those. I think that the thing that I remember when we were talking was that you introduced the story by saying it's a boring story. And then you told this story that had some like powerful. Words. You talked about your work and like investment banking or something. I think which for laypeople goes, oh, this person is smart. This pertinent person is powerful. This person has knowledge. And so looking for the words like that, that even as you're familiar with your own history or your own story, those things that make you. Oh, Yeah. When I said that before someone did lean in, someone did say, oh, wow. that's cool. And even like physically highlighting or highlighting on your computer or whatever, or underlining those words. And actually this kind of goes back to my theater training too. So when I. Worked on Shakespeare projects because Shakespearean language can be quite dense. It's meant to be heard. It's not meant to be read. So as you're reading it through prior to rehearsals something that I was trained to do was go through and underline and circle. Like I think, I think it's been so long, but I think that the professor trained me on this called them Telegraph words. Like if you were going to send a Telegraph. What are the limited words that you would send and looking at your story from that perspective? And then you can expand back out from there. [00:20:12] Diane: oh, I love that. So now the last great visual I'll be in my like old, like wild west outfit, like telegraphing my story. And so how do we move from that messaging and those stories? To making sure that, so now these are all super punchy and everybody's excited. And then they like land on our sales page, which, we have a very specific purpose and we've now moved them past the belief and that really to go into conversion. How do we make sure that that sales page isn't just like [00:20:44] Cathlyn: So. [00:20:45] Diane: to. [00:20:47] Cathlyn: We don't want any said tubas. Definitely. We want excited, happy sounds, whatever those would be fireworks or something. [00:20:56] Diane: I was going to say the triangle. Cause it was the only thing I was allowed to [00:20:59] Cathlyn: Oh yeah. I love that. Yes. Yes. And we're going to play. the triangle while people read our sales pages. And I think that the way to get to that reaction is really by asking. Question that can come off sort of snarky of sassy. And it is. So what we often focus on the fact we focus on the features of our service or program or course, whatever it is that we're selling and what we really need to be focusing on. Okay, that's cool. But how is this going to benefit me as the reader, as the student, as the client? What am I going to get from this? So for example, we might, if we're advertising a course, we might say, you know, and there are four live Q and A's okay. That's the what? That's the feature, but, so what, why do we care? How is that going to change my life? Having. For Q and A's available to me. And so we would really focus on like, these are, this is an opportunity for you as you work through the program to come up with the questions that really matter to you and to get personalized in real time feedback and clarity so that you can XYZ. And obviously that's a lot of words and we would want. You know, clean it up and editing, but this is something that has. Stuck with me through all of the work that I've done. And it goes way, way back to when I was in high school, my sport of choice was speech and debate. So that says something about who I am as a human being. That that was where I, where I felt valued and fulfilled in my teenage years. And I remember learning. As a debater and as a speech writer to ask that question to be in a, in a debate round and say, okay, here are the fact my opponent says this, but here are the facts that contradict that and here is why it matters. Here's why it matters to the case here is why it matters to you, the judge personally, and how you will be impacted and bringing that. That's so what really heavily into, into that messaging into that story that, that, that we would craft. And so when you're looking at your sales page, but not even just your sales page, like this is all your content, even if you're, you know, going live on Instagram or you are writing an email, it has to have that element. Of. So what, for us to really care, we, as humans are designed to take the lazy way, the, the path of least resistance. And so something that I struggle with sometimes as a business owner is assuming that people will do more things. And like more forward-thinking on their own, then people are really designed to do. And I put that pressure on people and that's unreasonable because that's not who we are as humans. and so I have to remind myself to spell things out for people and really say, okay, here's what we're talking about. Here's why it matters. Here's why you should care. Here's why you should listen. Here's why you should click this buy button because without. That direct communication people are, are going to click away. They're going to click the X. They're going to stop playing your Instagram live. They need that guidance from you. [00:25:19] Diane: and I guess that also goes back to where you're trying to Telegraph that store. It's like, which of the points that are actually conveying something that's important to the person who you want to be listening to it. [00:25:31] Cathlyn: Absolutely. [00:25:32] Diane: So now that you've hacked everybody off and everyone's excited to get the word out and get their message out and have it be much more meaningful and much more succinct than they probably have it at the moment. Tell me about what resources you have to help them get started. Right? Cause it's one thing to say, you need to do this. That's another thing everyone's going. Yes. How [00:25:53] Cathlyn: So a really great way to practice. This is by using your blog space. You probably already have a website. You may or may not have a blog that you use, but it is real estate that can be really, really practical and really, really useful. And it's also a great playground for exercising new ideas and for practicing different tactics. And so what I have for the listeners is. My guide to five essential rinse and repeat blog posts. So this is a short guide that's really intended to give you simple and unlimited blog content because four out of five buyers. And this is a crazy statistic to me, four out of five buyers. When given a choice between a brand that has a blog that they've been able to experience and a brand that does not have a blog. Four or five buyers are going to choose the brand with the blog. So if you don't have a blog yet, get ready to beef it up. If you do have a blog, this is a great way to add more content and really help practice that. That's. So what question that should be in all of your content? [00:27:11] Diane: I'm not going to lie. That's a totally terrifying statistic for me the reason I have. Is that I am incapable of hitting publish on a blog. I have like 400 blog posts that are like 50 to 75 to 99% written so much. So that friends have threatened to like hack my account and publish everything. [00:27:34] Cathlyn: so, so two things that come into my mind, one, a lot of the time we feel like things aren't ready and they are so. If it feels like it's 70% there, it's probably ready to publish. [00:27:47] Diane: oh, I'm publishing like B work. Oh, [00:27:50] Cathlyn: like our, our, our perfectionist souls crack to think about that. But it's true. If, if you feel like something is 70% to the, to where you want it to be that extra 30%. It's going to take you so much more effort than the 30% of quality is going to be worth. So that's thing. Number one thing. Number two is Yes. you have a podcast and that means that you already have the content for a blog, so you can post your, your. Podcasts and you just, you can either transcribe them fully and that's the really simple way to do it. Or I think the, more beneficial way is to take that transcription and create, or have someone create a narrative blog. So that content is already there. You're super ready. You're super ready for your blog. You're in a good place. Those are good problems to have. [00:28:51] Diane: none of the listeners can see the horror on my face. As I, as I think about, I might have to go and like download the guide and be like, okay, this is, this is doable. This is feasible. [00:29:01] Cathlyn: All of the, the types of blogs that are featured in this guide are super simple. They're not, research-based, they're about you. They're about your team. They're about your vision. So it's all things that are already inside you that you can then put out into the world. I challenge you. [00:29:24] Diane: Shifts nervously in her chair. Okay. I will give it a go. So to finish. I always ask my guests the same two questions. First of all, what is your number one lifestyle boundary for your business? [00:29:39] Cathlyn: So I set the expectation for my clients that there are no copyrighting emergency. I believe that things can be calm. Things can be peaceful. That is the life that I want to create. My, my main two personal values are calm and agency. I want to make my own choices and I want them to result in peace. And so I don't like to respond when people. Create urgency that doesn't necessarily factually exist. When people come to me, when clients come to me and they have, there actually is urgency, but they have created it themselves. Like they had a deadline and then they didn't reach out to me till the day before. There urgency at that point is not going to become my mental health problem. So that's something that I, that I really try to focus on is setting that, that boundary of no copywriting emergencies [00:30:57] Diane: How do you set that expectation? Because I think a lot of people listening to that, listening to this are probably thinking, oh, that sounds lovely. [00:31:06] Cathlyn: So one thing that I do is I write it into my country. Not in those words, but I specifically say that the average turnaround for such and such a project is X number of days. I also have language about like if personal emergencies come up that might affect deadlines. So that if, you know, Got really sick or had to travel because someone in my family was sick or something like that, that I have some breathing room to say, I need to extend this deadline. And it's always in the contract, people sign off on it so I can always guide people back to it. I've never needed that language as far as like the personal emergency section, but I'm glad to have it. I'm glad it's there. You know, eventually something will happen and I will want that flexibility. So that's part of it. Part of it too, is in my sales conversations and in my onboarding conversations, I work in my values and I really try to do that. Another, another freebie that I have actually Which is at right cap, creative.com/align. That freebie is all about how to take your values and put them in different places so that people are constantly seeing them. Like, I have some things in my email signature, I have things in my, like out of office response that are specific to my values. [00:32:42] Diane: Awesome. Okay. Finally, what is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've been given as an entree? [00:32:51] Cathlyn: Like anything that has. The must energy. Like you must go live on social media. You must teach live before you go. Evergreen. You must coach one-on-one before you coach in groups. I think that a lot of that advice is good advice and it's there for a reason. People have learned that it is good advice, but. I think about the queen of hearts in Alice, in Wonderland being like, oh, these are my ways. And they're not, we each have our own way. And it's really good to hear other people's perspectives about what they believe is the best way, but ultimately, It's about the pros and cons that are personal to you. So it might work better for you to coach group before you ever coach one-on-one or never coach one-on-one. It might work for you to never go live on social media and only post recorded things or written things. And that's, that's fine. Right now, I think reels like reels are the only way to grow your Instagram. Well, maybe it's not worth it to me to grow my Instagram. If reals aren't are going to have other negative effects in my life. You must do X, Y, Z. I know that's not a specific piece of advice, but it's like, it's that energy. [00:34:20] Diane: It's the genre of advice though. I find when I do like a wealth dynamic session with someone, usually at at least one point in the session, they'll be like, oh, that's why I hate. And it'll be like one [00:34:32] Cathlyn: Yeah. [00:34:33] Diane: of advice, right. Or they'll realize that they've been giving what worked for them, advice to their clients who fit into a completely different profile. And. Then wondering why they just won't do it. So I do love that one. I find that the must advice is usually the one that get somebody sick. [00:34:51] Cathlyn: and I love that people give advice. I love that there are people out, out there sharing their experiences, but I, I try to be careful And I'm not perfect at it, but when I share. Tactical advice to say, this is something that has worked for me, or I've seen this work for other people, but not have that you need to, you must, and this is an absolute sort of approach to it. [00:35:19] Diane: And I do think there's an element of entrepreneurial maturity or self-examination or responsibility that the listener needs to take you wouldn't necessarily read a book and be like, okay, I've decided that I'm now going to change my life because I don't know. I read a vegan Quito auto. [00:35:39] Cathlyn: And it is the way. [00:35:40] Diane: I'm south African, anyone who tells me to give up meat. It's just, it's a non-starter let's not begin. Right. But somehow we don't carry that into. Oh, you must do reels. Well, I hate being on camera, but I miss just forced myself to be on [00:35:54] Cathlyn: Yeah. Especially when that advice comes from a mentor or a coach that we have invested money into experiencing, [00:36:02] Diane: Yeah. It's that they must know better than me, [00:36:04] Cathlyn: they know a lot of things, but they cannot know what it is to be. You. [00:36:07] Diane: They're like, we've gone so deep today [00:36:13] Cathlyn: so we, we started out talking about a naked actor on stage and here we are [00:36:18] Diane: and here we are. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. So. Where's the best place for people to keep having this conversation with you, because I'm sure they will have opinions and stories that they would like to tell you. [00:36:31] Cathlyn: so the best place to find me as on LinkedIn. And I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I am there. I am the only Cathlyn Melvin on linked in. I just ask that if you're going to connect with me , that you also send me a note, letting me know why you're connecting, because otherwise I feel pressured to like dig around And try to figure out where we connected [00:36:50] Diane: on LinkedIn, that's the worst because the people can see that you've been looked. And then maybe like when you get one of those messages and you're like, I don't know who you are and then you click on their profile and you're like, oh, I really don't want to connect with you. But now, you know, I've seen your profiles and now I feel like I have to tell you why I'm sure none of my listeners will be one of those people. [00:37:11] Cathlyn: no. You're all wonderful. I'm sure. [00:37:14] Diane: Well, thank you so much. This has been. Both hilarious and educational, all wrapped up into one. [00:37:21] Cathlyn: Yes. This has been delightful. Thank you for having.