How To Use The Enneagram In Your Business With Jayla Rae Ardelean

TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED Diane: [00:00:00] Hey, Hey, today's guest Jayla Rae Ardelean is a writer, speaker, an ops queen, but she's not here to talk about any of that. She's here to help me understand that something that's so many in the online space find fascinating from memes to coffee. The engram seems to have you covered, but to me, I don't really see how it helps me run my business. As a certified engram coach, Jay Rae has promised to help me and you understand how to use it as a real tool, not just some fun distraction. Hey Jay Rae, welcome to the. Jayla Rae: Hi, thanks so much for having me. Diane: So let's do a quick intro to you and your business. Jayla Rae: Yeah. So I am primarily a military spouse mentor. I love supporting that community, but I also have a career and background in operations . I'm a writer, I'm a speaker. And. Depending on when you're hearing this interview, I am either in Italy or about to be in Italy as we are currently moving. So things are a little, little crazy over here right now. Diane: So let's begin our chat with what the engram. Actually shows you. Cause I think there's a lot of confusion. I use personality tests in my work and I find people will try to find the overlap. Even if the tests are trying to look at different aspects of the personality or different things about you. So where does the engram fit? What is it looking at? What is the reason for it? Jayla Rae: This is an amazing place to start. Thank you. So the engram is a personality framework with nine types. It's based on what motivates us, what drives us and what is important to us. So the engram is not based off of behavior, meaning you cannot type someone based off of their behavior alone. Rather you would need to ask, like, why were you motivated to do that? What basic fear or defense mechanism from your personality structure was driving that decision to engage in that behavior? So it's, it's, what's going on underneath and much of it is [00:02:00] actually speaking to a subconscious level. So part of what I do in my work. Using the engram to build more self-awareness. And when I say that, I mean, bringing what is subconscious to the surface Diane: Okay. So every time I do an a angiogram test, I'm a different number. I've been an eight. I've been a six. I've been a one, I think occasionally I come out as a nine, but that feels a bit rarer. So how do I type myself as a starting point? Jayla Rae: Yeah, this is a great question. So there are some people who have success with tests, but in general, I don't recommend taking a test. I recommend reading, reading books, listening to podcasts especially podcasts that have panels where you can hear, you know, maybe you're between two different types. And you're just not really sure. Listening to other people speak about their personality. Probably matches your own is such a useful tool, cuz it, it allows you to feel seen and validated. You're not gonna get that from a test. You're you're often not going to feel validated in anything it's actually just going to cause more questions. Diane: can I use memes? Jayla Rae: Absolutely not and here's, here's like kind of a basic framework to go off of Instagram because I actually think there are incredible coaches who are teaching on Instagram and that's the way of the world. We need to use social media. I am one of those people, but if the post is pretty. Meaning it was designed by a designer. It is not a learning tool. If the post is in a meme format, it is not a learning tool. it is not a learning tool. it might be really funny. It might be something that resonates with you and cool, sure. Share it to your stories, laugh about it. But if you don't know your any gram type, those are not learning tools yet, yet. Diane: Okay. So my very basic knowledge of angiogram is that I have my profile and that I have a wing. And I know that a [00:04:00] wing has to be one of the two side profiles. Like, so apartment eight, it can only be a seven or a nine, but then I'm also weirdly connected to like two other profiles. Jayla Rae: Yes. Diane: Please explain all the things. Jayla Rae: Yeah. So there are other, there are two other types that you're going to resonate pretty deeply with on the engram. And that reason is because the engram is a wheel. If you've ever seen that symbology where there's all these weird lines pointing between the numbers, those mean something. They mean that when we are When we are under stress, we start to take on the traits and characteristics of another type. When we are enacting a lot of personal growth, self-awareness trying to become better. We're also enacting a lot of the traits and characteristics of another type. So if Diane: A different other type Jayla Rae: yes. Yes. Diane: Right? So like when I'm, when I'm being like really stressy and not my best self, then I come out as type. X. And when I'm being my best possible self through a self-awareness and growth, then I come out as type Y I'm trying not to use numbers so that I Jayla Rae: Yeah. Diane: things. Jayla Rae: yeah. I mean, that's the, that's the most basic way to describe it. I will say that, you know, those two types that are present within you and, and moving through those dynamic lines, you have access to the highest, you know, the highest form of those other types too. You're you're not just automatically defaulting to the worst traits and characteristics, but I, I like to describe it that way because it teaches people. When they are under a certain amount of stress. There's a lot of people who walk around in the world who don't know that they're actually stressed or where the stress is coming from. And then that all gets put back into their business as an entrepreneur or as a leader within their team. And it starts to become this huge projection cycle. So part of building that self-awareness is understanding when you are moving between the lines within the [00:06:00] Enneagram and how. Revert backwards or how to take on the traits and characteristics that are actually helpful. Diane: so potentially I could be walking around showing to myself the characteristics of this stressy type that could alert me to the fact that like, Hey, I'm being super stressy at the moment that maybe I wouldn't be. Aware of otherwise. Jayla Rae: Exactly. And then that, you know, that also becomes a tool in of itself because I mean, this is what, this is the work of any Graham coaches. It's sort of that alert of reflecting things back to you, just like any other coach in any other field would and kind of holding up a mirror and saying, Hey, did you notice that. Oh, you didn't. Okay, cool. Let's talk about that. Let, let's talk about what I'm noticing and what I'm seeing and how we can get you back on a better and more supportive path. And then knowing in the future, like, oh, okay. Those are my indicators that that's when I know that I'm, I'm headed down this path and I can either choose to keep going I can go somewhere else. Diane: So Can you just summarize the nine types for us? it doesn't have to have a cutey name, but like, for me, someone says to me, oh, I'm a four. And I'm like, It's fabulous. I have no idea what that means. Jayla Rae: Yeah, I can give kind of a basic overview of what are called the core motivat. And then I'm gonna add a dash of what's called a worldview in each of the types, because when you put those two things together, it starts to encompass that personality type a little bit better. If I just give you the core motivation, you would be like, aren't all humans motivated by those things at one point or another Okay, so let's start with type one. So their core motivation is to be good to be morally up. And this worldview, this lens through which they are viewing the world is that the world is imperfect and they must make it a better place. A type two, uh, core motivation is to be loved, to be wanted and needed. And that [00:08:00] worldview is that people depend on them for help, and they have worth because they are needed a type threes, core motivation is to find worth in their productivity and to be admired or. And that worldview that they are working with is that the world values winners. So they must avoid failure at type four's core motivation is to find their true identity and to be unique. And that worldview is that compared with others, they sense that something is different in their life and they want to strive for what others have. Diane: Oh, I, I already understand several people much better. Jayla Rae: Right. let's do type five. A type five's core motivation is to be competent. And self-sufficient that worldview is that the world is the place that invades privacy and resources are something to protect a type six. Motivation is to be. Safe and secure often in community. And that worldview is that the world is a threatening and unsafe place, which drives them to test or question systems and people in order to feel safer at type seven's motivation is to be free or unlimited. Also put as to avoid pain. I like to in include that. and that world view is that the world is full of exciting possibilities. So what is next? There's always this question of what's next what's next at type eight's core motivation is to protect oneself and those closest to them. And that world view is that the world is a tough and unjust place where only the strong survive. So you'll often see an eight avoiding certain vulnera. At type nine's core motivation is to be at peace both internally and externally. And there's this balance that they are trying to create. And that worldview is that the world is not a harmonious place where they can fully assert themselves. Diane: that was really helpful. and [00:10:00] I was like a couple of them. I was like, oh, am I connected to that profile? Because I can see Jayla Rae: one. Diane: like five felt like Jayla Rae: Yes. You are connected to five Diane: five felt like me at my, at my worst. That felt like me. Like, like what I think when I, and, and then when I act out of that Jayla Rae: You just described a line Diane: And then definitely like my wing is definitely seven. I don't resonate at all with. Jayla Rae: Yep. Diane: but seven with freedom and adventure and it's a hundred percent me Jayla Rae: right. And it's that gear toward experiences. A little bit more toward experiences versus more toward, relationships. Diane: Yeah. And I think it explains to me why some people who are very into the, a angiogram when they try to type me would type me as a seven based on my lifestyle Jayla Rae: Mm. Oh, Diane: based on me moving Jayla Rae: and you're an adventurer. Yeah. Cool. When you try to type people off of traits and characteristics alone, you might get closer. People are describing your wing. Technically we got closer to what your core type actually is. But it can be extremely misleading because calling someone hardworking, for example, this is one of my favorites to use because this word is all over those memes on the internet. Hardworking is not limited to one specific engram type, and it's not limited to a specific group of people, either all nine types can be hardworking individuals, but for some reason, it, it gets used for threes and eights. A lot of the. sure threes and eights are hard working, but what about the rest of us? Diane: Yeah. So basically everybody else, if you're not those two profiles, we're just gonna assume that you are lazy. So which, which, which translates wonderfully into. So like how do we use this at work? I mean, I'm assuming you only hire threes and eights who are hard workers to be in your business with you. Jayla Rae: I mean, that makes a lot of sense to some extent. But yeah, so we can [00:12:00] use the Ngram in business as entrepreneurs or in team settings by evaluating how our personality types best work with one another. So it's a lot of the same work that you might do with discs. But it's through the lens of our motivations. So it's defining those strengths and weaknesses. Uh, with the lexicon of the Ngram, which can take a little bit while to learn just like with any system, there's a vocabulary associated with it. But that's one of my favorite things about it. We can also use it as a tool to evaluate our decision making and how we set goals. And that's what I focus a lot of my time on as an any Graham coach, because especially goal setting processes Those are often approached with like one size fits all. It's like, oh, here's my goal setting process. And therefore it's going to work for you as an entrepreneur because I found so much success in it, or it's gonna work with your team cuz it worked with mine, but not every, any gram type is going to resonate with that. So, I kind of hop on a soapbox for a second, if that's okay. Because a lot of those goal setting frameworks out there are developed by type threes and there's nothing wrong with, you know, other types trying to take on the characteristics and traits of type threes, because those are admirable, but here's the problem. their, their worldview is that the world values winners and they are deriving their self. Through productivity through how productive they were day to day. So if they develop a goal setting framework, it's gonna be about how to increase productivity and how to do the most and how to be the most day to day. And that's just gonna overwhelm a lot of the other, any gram types that, that may not fully with. Diane: It's kind of like looking for the individual motivation of each person and your team to be able to guide them towards the goal, by making it something that's exciting to Jayla Rae: Yeah. [00:14:00] Yeah. And just recognizing that we have our own our own unique set of motivations and I mean, as a type four, like the, my three wing is super dominant. So I, I resonate a lot with. Type three type three traits, type three energy like that is present within me a lot of the time, but I'm also combating against that type of energy, much of the time as well. So it's just about recognizing that people are motivated differently and how can we bring everyone together on the same page Diane: So, So one problem that I see with. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. So when I do disc or someone they're answering, like whatever it is, 70 questions, and it's asked multiple different ways over and over and over again. And it's been tested and validated and it's, it's unusual for someone to not resonate with their disc profile. Right. I use other tests and they might not resonate a hundred percent, but most people get their kind of disk combination. Right. So it's easy for me to go into a team and talk about. What are our like rules as a team, right? From a behavior standpoint, it's easy for me to spot where conflict's gonna happen. It's easy for me to talk to people about their communication style versus other people's communication style, right? Disc was a hundred percent built with business in mind. It's behavior and communication. Now engram requires me the individual to do quite a bit of self-reflection in order to correctly type myself. Right. And I think a, we have a lot of people who are quite unselfaware, so could be potentially mistyping themselves, but then also requires, I guess, somebody to come and share that that's their type openly, which it's quite intimate. Right. Jayla Rae: It's it can be very, yes, it's very vulnerable. Diane: And so if you don't have that core trust, I mean, having [00:16:00] listened to the, the nine profiles. Like if I was going into a brand new team, I'd be like, even if I wasn't, I'd be like, I'm so an eight I'm an eight or over three, I'm a three. Hello. Because of what it tells people about me. Jayla Rae: Yeah. Diane: Right. I would be very, like, it's a very intimate thing. You're asking the team to share with you and to not fudge around. And I just wonder. how long it would take for the Ngram to be effective with the team, cuz they also have to learn the lingo. Then they also have to be comfortable enough to be that vulnerable with each other. And then to be able to, I guess I always say with personality test, you gotta be so careful that others in the team don't use that profile to. I don't wanna use the word bully, but you know, use that profile to get their own way, like, oh, you're showing up as such an eight, Diane, you know, like you have to think about my worldview as well. So I'm not sure what my question is here, except I understand how it could be effective as a business tool. I just can't see it practically as a business tool. Jayla Rae: Mmm. okay. Well, I mean, it can be used as a conflict resolution tool. Absolutely. I mean, there are many coaches out there who are doing that and they're using the engram with teams, um, or they're developing a conflict resolution framework. So they're not handling a current conflict, but it's developing a framework that everyone can feel good about. And everyone buys into based on recognizing that, Hey, you have, you probably have all nine types within your team. If the Diane: Right. So, so you can use it assuming you have at least one of every type and you're, you're using it more to guide. How do we make sure this policy or this framework works for everybody's motivation? So you could be doing goals and you could be thinking, okay. This is the goal that I want. How do I make that sound good to a one? How do what's gonna work for a two? What's gonna work for a three versus necessarily having a team conversation where everyone goes, I'm a three, I'm a four, I'm an eight. I'm a. Jayla Rae: Yes, and no, I mean, I think it [00:18:00] can go both ways. I've worked with the engram with, uh, with a team in the past, uh, as director of operations and I think it. The initial conversation about it, especially for those who had not typed themselves yet. And we went over the nine types and we learned about how setting goals and making decisions are clearly important within this agency. And how do we, I guess, increase productivity, but also do the right things and feel like we are all aligned in our action taking when it is required of us. And. The thing that came out of that was actually just helping people to feel seen and validated. And sometimes it's not measurable, but Just giving people the opportunity to say. And to be vulnerable and say, well, this doesn't really work for me. And now that I have the lexicon of the Ngram, maybe I can describe that to you in a deeper way and why and why that is. And then coming to, coming to conclusions and, and coming to decisions. I think that there is this period where it can get a little messy because everybody is learning. But then once everybody is on board, uh, which can take time, once everybody is on board, I've seen it only help a team. I understand what you're saying about the bullying and there's also certain biases that we're all going to start it. Subconsciously forming against types that think that fundamentally think differently than us. I think that can happen with any personality based system. Diane: A hundred percent. I think one of the things I say about personality tests is that no matter which one you're using, you have to have somebody. Come you can't just have everybody take the test, whether that's dis or M B T I or col B or, or engram, you actually have to support your team in understanding what that means for them, what [00:20:00] it means for the team, how to communicate with each other. And I think strengths of that particular type, as well as the weaknesses, so that everyone appreciates that kind of whole person. And I can see how Enneagram would be super effective. However, I do think it's one that people throw around without expert help. Jayla Rae: Oh, Diane: Right. Whereas if you're doing something like a disc or an MBTI, people are kind of trained to like, okay, we've taken these tests. We need someone to explain to us what this means. Right. So they're unlikely at least to have some kind of masterclass on it. Whereas I feel like Enneagram people are sharing memes with each other as. Jayla Rae: Mm. Diane: way to get to know each other, but I also think it feels like engram needs that support even more than the other ones, maybe over a slightly more extended period of time, because you could start with a team and they might not know their types at all. Jayla Rae: yeah. Diane: And you could spend like an entire session just doing that. And before they were even ready to talk. How do we build it in? So it makes sense. You working with the team. I think it might be harder to do with someone who isn't really deep in the engram within the team. Jayla Rae: Mm. Yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. I think that's the, that's kind of the catch 22, because when we think about our. packages or our formats of like dropping into a team that we don't know, and then making our evaluations, doing the testing and then moving from there. I don't know that you can really expect that same format with the Ngram it, I think it takes a little bit more time and a little bit more patience. And I do know coaches out there who do, you know, VIP style days. It's like one, one work. Or maybe two. And then that's kind of it, and I'm not saying that that is a bad thing, but I do think it takes, it takes a little bit more time to kind of see the efficacy of [00:22:00] it all. But just to increase one team self-awareness can have ripple effects a team. Diane: oh yeah. I think it would be really interesting from a personal, like self-awareness. I feel like that one masterclass could really just have somebody thinking more about their own profile beyond a meme for sure. But I agree with you. It feels like a longer journey with the team and a real kind of commitment. I find people Flipp between testing types like, oh, we've had a masterclass on disk. Now we believe in disk. Oh, we've had a masterclass on this. And by the end, nobody actually knows in depth their profile in any of them. Right. So it's like, if you are going any Agram then have someone professional come and talk to you about it. Be prepared to do the work right. To reap those. Jayla Rae: Yeah. Diane: I'm sure that there are plenty of other people who like me have got most of their engram knowledge from the internets of memes and coffee orders and right, right. Really amusing. But honestly, I, like we were saying offline, I will scroll through any, any angiogram thing. I won't even read somebody else's I only look at the eights. So that, cuz I don't know why the other ones are supposed to be funny. How do I move? Like beyond those means, do you have a resource ? Jayla Rae: I mean, I think I said this before that those memes just aren't really learning tools. So just recognizing that in of itself is I think really powerful because then when you're in a mood to learn. and to not reinforce all of these great things about your type and what freaking coffee you would order, which is so ridiculous. When you're in the mood to learn your brain is immediately going to start switching into a different, into a different mode. I mean, I, I do recommend reading and listening to the podcasts and things. Uh, I do have a free resource in case you're interested, which kind of illuminates a little bit more about that decision making framework, [00:24:00] especially through the lens of being a business owner or working with a team. So I'm sure Diane will include that in the show notes. Diane: Awesome. So to finish up, I always like to ask the same two questions of all my guests. First up. What is your number one lifestyle boundary for your business? Jayla Rae: Oh, goodness. You're gonna hate this answer. I don't batch anything and I don't want to batch anything. I a hundred percent see the value in it. I know why other people do it. I want them to do it. I am probably never going to be a batch content maker in any capacity. That actually says a lot about my engram type and it, if you know anything about the engram and you know that I'm a type four, you're gonna be like, oh, your four is showing. And it absolutely. Is it just doesn't Diane: so remind me what part of your four is showing right now? Jayla Rae: uh, well, a lot of fours are known for, I mean, the archetype, the stereotype out there is that we're artists, which can be very misleading. yes. A lot of fours are artists, but, uh, we are creatively driven individuals and. Do not like to sacrifice, sacrifice, authenticity. And so when I'm faced with batch making content, it feels like I'm stripping away at the timeliness and the relevance of what I'm creating, because I'm doing it. I'm trying to create something so far in advance. And I don't know what I'm going to be doing one to two months from now. So Diane: Oh is the fact that I batch a lot, very eight of me. Jayla Rae: Absolutely. And when you told me that offline, I was like, oh, that's hilarious. Cuz it's just so it's so indicative [00:26:00] of, I'm gonna plan out my schedule. I'm gonna stick to this schedule. Sure. It's gonna be hard. It's gonna be tough, but I can do it. I'm capable. I'm self-sufficient I have got this and we're gonna, we're gonna suffer a little bit, but we're just gonna get it done. Diane: yes, that's a hundred percent. My podcast batch days, it's usually up to five. Interviews in an afternoon. And I have to have the day afterwards blocked in my calendar, cuz I will be unable to do anything. I will not be able to have a conversation. Jayla Rae: And you've developed a routine around it as well. That's Diane: yeah, but for me it helps me get into like today I'm in podcast mode. It's very difficult for me to have a random podcast show up in the middle of a day Jayla Rae: Yeah. Diane: when I'm not like in podcast mode. Jayla Rae: Yeah, I see. I would be the opposite. Like the fact that I'm having this talk with you today is so completely random based on the rest of what's going on in my life, my business and my schedule. And I love that. I'm like, woo, we got this little, we got this little energy verse. This is great. Diane: this little interlude in my day. Oh dear. Okay. Finally, what is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've been given as an entrepreneur? Jayla Rae: I don't know if I can boil down the piece of advice to one line, but it's that I tried to take goal setting advice from other entrepreneurs and. I don't think it was very helpful. I, I don't think it, I think it actually caused, this is also indicative of my of my type, but I think it actually just caused me to feel a lot of shame and remorse when I could not produce at the output level that other people can. And instead of just recognizing that. I got things done and I may not have done them the most efficient way, and I may not have done them in the least amount of time, but they were important to me and I finished it. But if I'm taking on the [00:28:00] advice of other entrepreneurs out there who are completely opposing any gram type, I will then like, shame myself that, oh, I didn't get it done. How they would do. I, I didn't get it done in the amount of time. They said it would take, I, you know, I took two days off Diane: Yeah. Yeah. And especially, I guess, cuz those types of the traditionally they match up with the traditional kind of corporate model of. This is how you achieve things, like make your checklist, Jayla Rae: Yeah, Diane: through. You could do it kind of thing where you're very, Jayla Rae: right. And not so much. And I can be, I mean, like I said, I have access to that three wing. Like I, I it's there and I do. I do surprise myself sometimes when I take on those traits and characteristics, and I'm able to do it for a consistent amount of time, but consistency is something that I struggle with. And instead of shaming myself for that struggle, I'm just, I need to look inward a little bit more and to figure out, you know, what works for me and, and recognizing that it's probably not gonna be someone else's system. It's probably gonna be something that I build for. Diane: this has been great. I feel like I feel a lot more. Qualified to just even, just even have a conversation where engrams a topic. I also feel like less attached to. Jayla Rae: mm-hmm Diane: I'm meme shamed as an eight. So that'll, that'll help as well. I know people are gonna want to carry on the conversation with you. I'm tell you their type or why they don't know what their type is. Where's the best place to carry on that conversation on the socials. Jayla Rae: Yeah. If you reach out to me in the DMS, I love DM conversations at mill dot spouse on Instagram. Let me know what you're thinking about, what you're currently challenged by from this conversation. Love a good titillating challenge convo in the DMS. And I don't know if you have any questions about. The right resources to learn from, cuz you've probably gathered that there there's a Diane: meme university is not Jayla Rae: Me university [00:30:00] is not the right place. If you do not know your type. And it's still not a learning tool, even if you do know your type, but. Uh, if you wanna avoid the meme university and you wanna know who to learn from and where to go, you can absolutely reach out to me and I will send you in the right direction. And I also have content on my own podcast related to the engram. Diane: And I guess if they follow along on your Instagram journey, they could very shortly see pictures of a new Italian lifestyle. Jayla Rae: That is true. I will be the envy of many on the socials. I will try. I don't love giving just the highlight reel. So you're gonna see, you're gonna see the shadow side of living overseas as well, which is probably way more interesting than what coffee I drank that morning at what cafe on what corner, which. Diane: I'm very into the food. Please share all the food. Jayla Rae: that those are story shares. I'm very active in my stories. Diane: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been great. Jayla Rae: yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.