Coffee+ Converse With Kylie Hodges

How To Embrace Imperfection For Bigger Impact And More Profit With Kylie Hodges


TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED [00:00:00] Hey. Hey. Today's guest, Kylie Hodges, works with talented perfectionist entrepreneurs. She helps them bust their anxiety, their uber high standards, and the people pleasing because that's what's holding back the moneymaking. But let's dive in before my perfectionist takes over and rerecord this intro bajillion times. Hey Kylie, welcome to the show. Kylie: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Diane: So let's do a quick intro to you and your business. Kylie: Great. Well, I'm a business coach, so I help entrepreneurs transform their no mercy perfectionist standards into an energizing, impactful, and profitable business. So basically, I talk about it this way. My program is called the VIP Inner Circle, and so with the V I P process, people learn how to be valuable, imperfect, yet profit. Diane: Oh, oh Kylie: Whoa. Diane: this. This just got interesting. So . Perfectionism, Let's be honest. It's a little bit of a badge of pride, right? I would rather say that I'm a perfectionist than a procrastinator. Kylie: for sure. Diane: So what other things are we hiding behind that badge of perfectionism? Like when you say perfectionism, what does it really. Kylie: a lot of times people think perfectionism just means doing everything perfectly, but really, Perfectionism is just an illusion and it's the belief that you must be perfect. So it doesn't have to do with doing at all. All the perfectionism happens inside your no. And for some people procrastination is a symptom of perfectionism. That's how I am. You know, it's the belief that I cannot get started until I know the exact perfect process. Or the exact right way to [00:02:00] go about it. And it results in putting things off until the 11th hour. For some folks, it's a little more common, like the common belief of perfectionism. So it shows up in the form of being very type A, which. Can't appreciate those type A folks. We need 'em in this world. But also really struggling with control and delegating. And tends to be the people who burn out the quickest. They'll burn them midnight oil. They can't let go of the tight grip of whatever the outcome is that they're expecting. So that's like the surface level definition of perfectionism. The root of it all gets buried in this belief that our outcomes are tied to our value and self forth. Diane: Okay, so I believe that I am valuable if I create output, and because my value is tied to that, the better the output, the higher my value, and that makes me a perfectionist. Kylie: It's a perfectionism tendency. I, I'm, I'm never someone who's nit picky with semantics except here, because I don't wanna label someone. It's just gonna make someone feel crummier and I label myself all the time. So that is a perfectionism moment. But yes, Diane: That's the internal subconscious monologue that's happening is that this needs to be perfect for me to be value. Kylie: Exactly. And if anyone's hearing this and thinking, Oh God, I'm, that's me, first of all, it's all of us. And it happens to us. This is a result of being a person alive in 2022. For people who. I see this a lot with millennials. The, the parenting in the eighties and nineties was very like gold star parenting. So like achievement based, you know, my parents were this way. If I got an A on my report card, I got a good job, a hug, a kiss, and maybe a present. And [00:04:00] so that, Self worth value, love to accomplishments. So that's what drives people who are like high achievers, do gooders to be extremely hard on themselves. Diane: It's like a whole Rabbit Warren kind of thing. Like you've seen the hole at the top and you've gone like, Oh no, I have a perfectionist. Oh no. But secretly you're quite proud to say it. And then you've dug down and now you're like, Oh, there's 17 different burs under here. Kylie: Yeah. Diane: So how does all of this show up? So we've talked about it like it's symptomatically, showing up. What are those symptoms in our business? Kylie: Yeah. Very good. Okay, so it looks a lot like shiny object syndrome. So I think I heard you mention this in another episode. Where you were talking about in the middle of a launch, you phone it in because you're excited about a different idea. Instead, classic shiny object syndrome right there, you get an idea and you just spend a lot of time and energy on it, perfecting it, whatever without taking a step back and seeing how does this play into the big picture and really just giving yourself firm deadlines about. When is, when is the C plus product gonna arrive? And when is it expected to be done? It also looks like, toxic in decision. So that can look like I have a client who was really struggling with this in the form of avoiding hiring a va. She was at a point where she, she was ready to bring on a team member and it was. how you mentioned earlier that perfectionism is a a bit of a flex. I think she was really taking pride on, now my business is so busy, I'm just so busy. Even though she was kind of miserable, being so busy, it was a new thing for her and releasing the [00:06:00] grip of saying, Okay, I need to invest a little. To really , keep myself sane and delegate. So she was choosing to be indecisive about it by remaining wishy-washy, not really wanting to commit to when. So that's what I call toxic indecision. It also shows up in sales. Another version of how perfectionism shows up in sales is people are focused on getting the other person on the phone to like them. They're too worried. Then in the sales conversation, maybe they're not, they don't wanna make the other person uncomfortable for the sake of potentially being disliked. so then there's a little bit of people pleasing showing up there. Diane: So people pleasing and perfectionism is probably not something that I've ever like put in the same bucket, Kylie: Mm-hmm. It, the way I see it is it always goes back to you're worried about you and your perception, or how you will be perceived by others Diane: Mm-hmm. Kylie: and that affect. How you behave. Diane: Right. Okay. So it's coming from kind of the same place. People pleasing is just one of the symptoms of it. Only wanting to release something when it's a hundred percent perfect is another symptom of it. Shiny objects syndrome is another symptom. All of the same self-worth moment. Kylie: Yeah. Like there's a million, It's sort of like a. a spider web. There's a million different ways you can go. The root of it is always like, being focused inward, being concerned about tying your value, your worth as a person to whatever you do, however you be, and then forecasting how you think it will go or should go. Did I lose you? Are you having a existential [00:08:00] crisis? Diane: Yeah, I'm having like a, where could it be next? I'm having these visions of you know, when the person's in a movie and they're like focused in one direction and the camera's behind them and you know that the minute they turn around that's where like the monster or the bad dude is. That's what I feel like is happening with me with like I've been walking forwards looking at perfectionism and all the time it's been quietly stalking me from the back. Kylie: Yeah, and here's the thing, like we're never gonna be perfectly imperfect. You know, it's, this is just part of the human journey of shedding all the stuff that was put on us and is still being put on us. You know? There's a bunch of other reasons why we struggle with perfectionism. I didn't bring those up, but it, like, tldr, it's the whole world, you know? So , it's, it's not like, the guy that shadow behind you will ever totally go away. It's about developing a muscle where you know he's behind you. And you are able to just ignore you notice and you're like, Oh yeah, that shadow of perfectionism behind me. He's been there a while, but we don't talk anymore. Diane: Okay, so what do we do then to do that? When somebody says to me, just, you know, put out C plus work. That to me is like you, you know when you are really angry and you are in an argument and someone goes, Just calm down. Kylie: Yeah. Yes, Diane: That's what it feels like to me. It feels exactly the same when someone's like, It's good enough, like, oh, Kylie: I hear you. I, I actually completely agree with that analogy. And I was also talking with a friend about how when you're really upset or stressed and someone says, Have you ever tried meditation? It's like, we all know we should be meditating. Okay. I love to meditate, and yet in this moment, I don't wanna be told to meditate. So I hear you. The, the first. In unlearning perfectionism, or another way to say it is embracing imperfection is to develop a practice of curiosity. So for [00:10:00] me, that looks like having a lot of post-it notes around my laptop that remind me of certain things. And curiosity is the way to remove yourself from being so married to an outcome. So it also just takes awareness, which. Th I can't force that on you. You just have to start practicing and noticing and develop a practice of noticing what your own perfectionism tendencies are. And then when you're able to notice them, get curious around them. For example Procrastination. I notice that I procrastinate a lot. I put myself through misery for a solid X number of time until the webinar is due or whatever. And it seems like that's not helpful, Diane: so seems like there might be a better way to do this then crying. Of my keyboard at one minute to the webinar start time. Kylie: Okay. But also I've absolutely done that if anyone listening has cried over their keyboard, you are in good company . So it's, it's getting clear on what are your perfectionist and tendencies, and then it's all about getting curious in the form of, Huh, okay, it seems like I procrastinate these types of projects. What's up with that? So, If I'm procrastinating, it could be because I'm so tied up and anxious around what I expect the outcome to be. So I would need to ask myself, Okay, am I avoiding this because I think that there's supposed to be a perfect way to do this and I'm feeling really anxious about it. I wonder if I didn't know, if there was no such thing as a perfect way to do this, what would happen for me? A more. Obvious example is I won't let myself take a vacation until I hit six figures. So that's a very [00:12:00] obvious example of I'm very attached to an outcome and I'm not gonna give myself permission to live or be a person until I get there. And the way to practice curiosity around it would be like, Okay, so what if I took a vacation? Now, , like, how would it be possible? How would it be possible to take a vacation? Now, how would it be possible that that vacation could get me to six figures faster? I wonder what would happen if I did x. and if six figures came my way before I even wanted it, like it's, I'm, I'm rambling a little bit here, but it's because there's a million different ways you can go here and, and the, the short of it is you have to first develop an awareness of where perfectionism shows up for. And then you have to also develop a self-awareness to stop yourself and ask, is this really the, the, the end goal being attached to an outcome? Like if you removed an attachment to the outcome, what would happen? Diane: Yeah. Cause I think sometimes, Oh actually most of the time when you talk to people through their like shiny object syndrome, a lot of the time the reason they wanna latch onto the new idea is they're afraid that the old idea, it's not working. That's where you see that classic launch example, like it's day two of your launch. You haven't already hit your launch goals. And rather than going all in on that, you are like, Oh, this is not working. It's not the like seven figure launch straight out of the gate that I was expecting. So let me latch onto this new squirrel Kylie: Yes, Diane: and distract myself with the new squirrel and distance myself from this quote unquote, failure of [00:14:00] a launch. Kylie: Yes. Another symptom right there, like quitting before you even had a chance to. Diane: Yeah. Kylie: objects or the squirrels are a really good way to take you away from that path of, of winning before you even had a chance to. I'll say one more thing. So let's say you're like, Okay, Kylie, whatever. I already know how I'm a perfectionist. Cool. Detach myself from the outcomes. Got it. That's gonna take forever to do. Another thing, and this might sound basic to some people, but another form of embracing imperfection is getting really clear on what are practically speaking. What is the skillset needed? Or if there's already a pathway that you know exists to get what you want, are you following that pathway? Because perfectionism tends to talk you out of a lot of things, like building a business isn't easy, but like I would say most business coaches would argue it requires a set of skills and. Do you have all those skills? Do you have all of the collateral in place? If not, have you tried? Oh, you have, but why don't you have it? Like it's, it's what is stopping you from just following the rules? That's sort of the second level. Diane: So how do you then distinguish, so the scroll, it's like, okay, get curious about like, why am I latching onto this new idea? Why do I think this new idea is better than this other idea? What happens if this idea was gonna be a huge success and I just stuck with it? Versus the other option of like, why am I procrastinating and I'm just sitting here and I'm just kicking back and what am I thinking about the outcome that's making me not wanna try for the outcome, et cetera, et Kylie: Mm-hmm. Diane: how do you distinguish that perfectionism of the thing itself is not a hundred percent perfect, whether that's [00:16:00] showing up as procrastination or as shiny objects or however it's showing up, I'll use blog post as an example. I cannot push publish on a blog post, right? My, I can talk for days. Pushing publish on a blog post is my own personal nightmare. There is a ton of c plus stuff sitting in a directory that could just be published tomorrow if I would let someone else do it right? How do I get to the point where I distinguish between, , this is really genuinely not good enough cuz we don't want to put. shoddy work, whether that's for a client, whether it's our own content or whatever, versus, okay, now I'm just in that perfectionist zone, Kylie: Yeah. Diane: cuz they can sound very similar. Kylie: Yeah. Yep. So, going back to what I said earlier about having like a specific set of. This, it sounds like re you. You need to make your own personal rubric about what boxes must be checked for something to go out into the world, to be delivered to a client, to make it to a team member, and be really frank, like really just practical about it. What does it need to accomplish? Does the blog post need to have SEO keywords? You know, at least five of them. Great. Do you have them? Cool. Does it need to be a minimum 250 words no more than 500? Yes. it's a matter of being really upfront with yourself and saying, Okay, what is the purpose of creating this thing? And is. Is this version meeting that purpose? Diane: The thing that came into my brain was , it's almost a job description for that particular thing. So here is the job description for a blog, and the blog is gonna quiet quit after it ticks all the boxes and the way it quiet quits as we just push publish and , that's it. It's done it. But it's almost having that upfront because I think once you're in it,[00:18:00] Kylie: Yeah. Diane: perfectionism is already rolling, like it's got momentum, versus if you know that going in, these are the boxes I have to tick. Kylie: Yeah. Diane: this is a plus work, Kylie: Yep. Very good. Yeah. if that resonates with anyone listening, I would challenge you to make this like a thing on your to-do list today and, you know, set a timer for no more than 10 minutes per job description of whatever you're gonna write. But that would be a really interesting way to figure out, okay, for Diane, blog posts cannot get out the door for her, so she'll just spend 10 minutes. Brain dumping, whatever it is she thinks a blog post needs to accomplish for her business or why it even exists, Like maybe it's not even important for you, who knows? Diane: I mean, it was a lot more important when I didn't have the podcast and I did the pod, I did the podcast as a, as a solution to the not being able to get a blog post out the door, Kylie: Very good. Diane: for the win. Kylie: Yes, major self awareness for the win. And that's probably what will happen for anybody who does this exercise. You know, a, a classic example is like people get hung up on social media presence and it's like, is social media actually the main lead generator for you? Or what do you think social media is meant to do for your business? Is it currently doing that? If not, How can we change that? So I really like your analogy though, of creating a job description for something that is so spot on. Yeah. Make a job description for everything that you're hung up on and don't wait until you have to do the thing to make the job description. Set aside time now procrastinators and talking to you so that, so that when you're in that little bit of a perfectionism spiral, you can just whip out that checklist and say, Okay. If I've checked all the boxes here, I guess it means it's time to hit publish.[00:20:00] Diane: Yeah, and maybe thinking of it as if somebody was writing the blog for you. What would you want them to, Kylie: Yeah. Like an sop. Mm-hmm. Diane: would you be checking that they had done? Right. I really like the kind of wherever I can put a checklist in a business thing. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put a checklist and a spreadsheet and Kylie: oh yeah. Diane: you know, Woo. Kylie: Crossing things off, checking boxes. It's so satisfying. Even as a procrastinator, like sometimes I'll write on my to-do list, like write the to-do list and then cross it off, and I'm like, Oh, Diane: Oh, you, you have to like write the thing that you've just done as your starting point on a to-do list, because that's what gets you that momentum, right? You have to Kylie: It's a quick win. Diane: mini achievement. A hundred percent. Kylie: Right. Whatever you can do to get a quick win. That's also a momentum thing with perfectionism because perfectionism tends to, Downplay and ignore accomplishments. And this is also for people, anyone who identifies as neuro divergent. So I imagine your listeners know what that means, but like it could be anything. Anyone who struggles with anxiety or depression or adhd. I'm the trifecta there. So, it's, it, it, it's really easy to bulldoze over. Enjoyment, simple pleasures and legitimate achievements and, and it's easy to downplay those things. So finding a way to, to celebrate and really acknowledge what is a win is very important for momentum. Diane: but how do we find the exact right way to celebrate I'm kidding Kylie: Yeah, I mean, I have an answer, but Diane: I have been listening for like the 20 minutes that we've been talking. Right. . But yes, if there is a perfect way, please tell me. Kylie: There is no perfect way, except you just have to think about like, what would feel good right now even, And I tend to get caught up with this as a kid, I used to get a lot of gift cards and I used to hoard them cuz I would always think like I need to know the [00:22:00] perfect thing to spend them on. But it's like, you know, you're 12 years old and you have a $10 gift card to Best Buy. this is a very specific story I'm thinking of when I was 12 years old, standing at Best Buy, trying to figure out what was the perfect CD to buy. These are all things people do not do anymore, Diane: Yeah. Kylie: but it's a, it's, I think about it because I, I was like, In that moment very crippled with like, this is free money. I have to make the most of it. I have to pick the best thing. It's like you don't know what the just, It's okay to not know what the best thing is. Whatever you pick is the best thing and that just takes practice and reminding yourself of that. Diane: Ooh, maybe that's what needs to go on. Everyone's post-its on their computer. Tell us some of your PostIts so that people can get some inspiration for their PostIts. Kylie: Well, one of 'em says, you're not a human if you're perfect, because it's actually not human nature to be perfect. Diane: Oh, my inner perfectionist just died a little. Kylie: She is a robot because she cannot be a living, breathing thing and be perfect. It is not exists. No such thing has ever existed on the planet as a perfect thing. Another one says you are not serving if you give the kitchen sink. So another one of my turn tendencies is overgiving. Diane: Mm-hmm. Kylie: oversharing. In fact, I've been dumping a lot of information on you here. So like even then I might re-listen to this as perfectionist to be like criticizing myself to no end about how I could have delivered this information differently. But I mask over delivering as a way to get people to. Like me, I think if I give everybody the kitchen sink right away, all the information, they'll like me more. They'll wanna work with me. They'll see how smart I am. But again, it's not about me. If I was really here to serve and help other people, I would understand [00:24:00] that people need to learn in increments, otherwise they get overwhelmed and that's not. So overwhelming people with the kitchen sink is not a kind thing to do. It's not serving them well. Those are the two I have up right now. Diane: I like both of those. I will say though, that people can re-listen to the podcast multiple times. I'm happy to take the downloads as they absorb all this information, Kylie: and they should, and I've been someone who does that like in the early days of business for sure. When I thought all I had to do was just learn another. would, Diane: you, then it'll be perfect. Kylie: Yes, exactly. Diane: So. I feel like everybody is now self identifying as a perfectionist. We've had every possibility so that everybody can now Kylie: Yeah, we can Diane: them. We're, we're, we're all this at some degree, and it's not a competition. You don't have to be a more perfect perfectionist than anyone else. we have talked about a lot of information. Is there a little something that they can grab from you that is just gonna help? Spot this in their business and find a, a, a more peaceful way to coexist with perfectionist stalking them from behind. Kylie: I love the way you worded that. Yes. So when I talked earlier about having a specific set of skills, or a rubric or a pathway I have that, it's a really comprehensive workbook called the Perfectionist Pathway to Profit. You can go to. My website, kylie, and it is totally yours. And it's basically a breakdown of, okay, these are the different pillars of business as I see it. And these are the, it, it's essentially a checklist. So you're, So if you love crossing things off and checking boxes, this will be for you because it'll keep you in line with what needs to get done. And also, there's a really fun little pledge that you take at the beginning, and I encourage everyone to print it out and tape it on their desk. Diane: So to finish up, I was asked my guests the same two [00:26:00] questions. First of all, what is your number one lifestyle boundary for your. Kylie: Oh, you know, I've listened to the podcast and I hear you ask other people and I was thinking last night about what the answer to this was, and I didn't really come up with a good answer, but I think a hard no for me is anything that goes against. What I value, what I believe in, and how I think it would disrupt my impact or my messaging, and if it would disrupt my own personal wellbeing. That's really vague. I don't wanna say I don't work on nights and weekends, cuz sometimes I do, but I do it if I decide, like yesterday I decided to sleep till 10 30, which I almost never do, but I was like, I need it. So I moved stuff around on my calendar. So I think the hard no is more of, if it's disruptive and I cannot get back whatever I lose from it. And I think it goes against my values as a person and a business. It's not very sexy, but it is what it is. Diane: No, but I feel like the reason I ask this question is that I think everybody has different boundaries. And I think the boundary that's quote unquote sexy and used in marketing is, I only work three hours a week. Right. And sometimes and sometimes it's the unsexy ones that people really need to hear and go, Oh wow. I do not do that. Kylie: Yeah. Diane: to make them realize that they can put a boundary there. Like that's what, That's why I ask all my guests those questions. I want people to see what those boundaries could be. Okay. Finally, what is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've been given as an entrepreneur? Kylie: okay. one that I got was go all in on Clubhouse. And then years before. Do you guys remember? Periscope, I was told Periscope is gonna be the next hot thing. So I put [00:28:00] so much energy into getting big on Periscope and then that went nowhere. And also Clubhouse, I put, someone was like, You gotta get in on Clubhouse now. And I was like, Okay. Yeah. And so I spent way too much time for the month of March, I think it was last year, trying to. A clubhouse that didn't happen, and it's fine. I learned, but I'm not gonna listen to that person anymore. Diane: This husband Fab. Thank you so much. Where can people find you on the socials to come and talk to you about their perfectionist stalker person behind them or their squirrel or their inability to get off the couch? Because Netflix is on. I don't know who that could possibly be. It's not what I have planned all day tomorrow after batch day is a procrastination if you plan it. I don't think it is. I think it's Kylie: No. If it's planned, it's not procrastination, and I absolutely binge Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is my current binging. I, yeah, let's do another podcast episode about that. So for people who want to find me it's my name everywhere. You can find me on Instagram at Kylie Hodges. And I believe by the time this airs I am launching a YouTube channel. I will be launching tidbits about perfectionism and business and sales and all that juicy stuff. Sometimes it's sexy, but mostly it's pretty unsexy. So you can find me on YouTube Diane: Awesome. Wow. Good luck with that launch. Kylie: Thank you, Diane: Thank you so much for diving deep into the rabbit Warren. That is beneath our surface. Kylie: Thank you for having me. And I hope that you and everybody else listening feels like they, they see a way at the end of the rabbit hole tunnel that there is a light at the end of it.

In the entrepreneur world, we can wear perfectionism as a badge of honor but our “high standards” are keeping us from big impact and big profit.

Kylie Hodges walks you through spotting, confronting, and taming your perfectionist side so that you can get out of your own way.

Key Takeaway

Perfectionism is not about doing things perfectly but feeling we need to be perfect to be valued.

We talk about

  • What perfectionism is and is not
  • The symptoms of perfectionism that we might miss
  • Where perfectionism is lurking in our businesses
  • How to stop perfectionism stopping us from creating an impact or results
  • What you can do in the next 10 minutes to make a real difference
  • Kylie’s lifestyle boundary for her business
  • The worst cookie-cutter advice Kylie’s been given on her lifestyle business

About Kylie

Kylie Hodges works with talented, perfectionist entrepreneurs who are overwhelmed and under-earning and ready to bust through the anxiety, impossible standards and people-pleasing tendencies holding them back from making money. They develop the CEO skills to slay imposter syndrome, build a healthy relationship with marketing and sales, and simplify their to-do list to make empowered, money-making decisions so that they can finally run businesses that serve them AND others well.


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The information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast episode and article are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article or episode. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article. Diane Mayor disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article.