Mai-Kee Tsang

How To Create Safe and Sustainable Visibility™ With Mai-Kee TsangThe


TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED Diane: Hey, Hey. So today's a podcast, guesting strategist guesting on a podcast talking about guesting on a podcast. Seriously, though, Mai-Kee Tsang is a sustainable visibility mentor. And we're going to talk about how to grow your visibility in a way that works for you. Hey, Makey. Welcome to the show. Mai-Kee: Thanks so much for having me and I love how meta it all works. It was like we got a podcast, guesting strategist who's guesting on a podcast. He was talking about podcast guesting. Diane: I love it. I love it when it works out that way. So let's introduce everyone a little bit to your business and your business journey. Mai-Kee: all right. Yes, absolutely. I'd love to. So as you said, Diane, like I am podcast guesting strategist, and the sustainable visibility, mental, and I love helping introverted female entrepreneurs to really find a business that works well for them. And yeah, my eyes are not where you want to start in this business journey. We could talk from any jump point specific part you want to hear about. Diane: Various about how people got what was the turning point that got them to what they're doing now? What were they doing before? And then what was the turning point to get to where we are now? Mai-Kee: Okay, there are two. So that journey one how I got into podcast guessing and two, how I birthed the sustainable visibility movement. So I'll start with the podcast guesting one. So this was in June, 2019 when I started my own podcast, the quiet rebels podcast and. I w I loved like, you know, showing up consistently. Cause before that I was very inconsistent cause no one was really counting on me to produce content. So my podcast was a way for me to hold myself accountable and to become like a beacon for those who do also identify as quiet rebels in business and just want a place to kind of just be themselves. And around that time, I'm not going to lie my referral. Well, it ran so dry. Like nothing was coming in the pipeline and it was because I was so complacent with you know, getting referrals. I was like, okay. I go, you know, I'm all good, but then no, I was not working. So my mental is at a time they told me, make you need to get on podcasts. And I was like okay I'm going to do that. I have no idea how, but you know, I'm the kind of girl that if you don't, if I don't know how, then I will figure out how so I like to go big or go home a lot of the time, not all the time, but I really thrive well on challenges. So I challenged myself to pitch to 101 podcast in 30 days. Diane: In 30 days. Mai-Kee: Your eyes like no one can see your eyes lie to me, but they just went huge. Diane: Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking of my own podcasting sprints, and I will challenge myself to maybe do two a day. Okay. Because there's a lot of work that goes into pitching a podcast. It's not as simple as writing an email, which some people might not know. So that's why my eyes are like sources. So 101 in 30 days. Mai-Kee: and I will, I'll be completely transparent here. I don't recommend anyone do that ever. And it's because I personalize all of these pitchers. So yes, you're right. It's not just writing an email is not a copy and pasting. I did the research, listened to a couple of podcasts episodes and, you know, follow them on social or apply to the Instastories, all the things. So you bet your honeybuns at that sat to my capacity. So when we talked about, when we talk about sustainable visibility later, This is what not to do. You need to be aware of your capacity that anyhow, I went for it anyway, because I didn't have much client work to be quite honest. So I, I could do that. And there was a point when one of my mastermind peers, he was like, Mai-Kee, do you have time to do client work? And I'm like, Nope, I'm too busy pitching, following up, doing interviews that anyhow, it gave me the momentum that I did need at the time. Cause I had no other marketing channels working for me. So I suddenly became a accidental experts in podcast guesting because suddenly all of my peers, because I was in the copywriting space at the time. They'll make it, how do you do it? So I wound up launching a program all about teaching the hell. And it was during that specific launch, Diane, where one of my other, most of my peers can tell them a lot of them pop a lot. Most of my mine, she referred me a one-on-one client who wanted help like me to pitch for him. And I thought, okay, this is interesting. So I suddenly added on a new service I didn't expect to do, but here's my second leg of the journey. So I had been pitching like hundreds of podcasts for my clients to a point where I needed to actually hire some team members to help me fulfill the actual pitch retainers. And it got to a point where I started noticing a pattern. Now, the clients that I had that I said, like, they, they were great. Don't get me wrong. It's not the client, but I started noticing some prospects who were interested in working with me and I was asking them, you know, why do you want to be on podcasts and all the things and bearing in mind that I have the perspective, not as someone who's just been on podcast, but also have my own and my pitch methods, or actually refined after asking podcasters, what do you look for in a pitch? So it's been like validated by my own and podcasting experience, my own guesting experience for my clients and asking my podcast appears. And the thing is why I noticed Diane is they start saying like, I don't really care about the details. Just get me on as many as possible. That was like the resounding message that I kept seeing creep up. And I realized, you know, what. I don't want to perpetuate this, me offering a done for you. Service is perpetuating it behavior that I don't align with because podcast guesting is incredibly intimate. You and I were having this, you know, coffee and converse conversation is really intimate and personal. And for someone to just want to reap the benefits it's one thing to be involved, but not in the weeds. But for someone to just want nothing to do with it, they just care about the prestige and having that eager, rubbed about how many podcasts I get on. I didn't want to perpetuate that. Diane: and you could feel that on the other side, as a podcast as well, like I've had the pitches from, I mean, I feature women on my platform and I get pitched by guys who will send me their resume. All about something that's totally unconnected. Like you haven't even listened to the intro of my podcast, middle load and episode. when you get a really impersonal pitch from someone I don't want to spend half an hour with you. Mai-Kee: Yeah. I mean, like it's, it's fine to want to guest on podcasts, you know, in a strategic way. So of course you're building your business, but in my, from my experience and, you know, as someone who's become an accidental expert in this is like, it's fine to be strategic, but that can't be your party. Your party needs to be service first. Self-important second. And the thing is. What I've found with a lot of people is that they is obviously the other way round. And like, I received a pitch today and I get quite pissed off to be honest when, cause I'm like, yo, I'm a podcast, guesting strategist. I help people. Like I teach people how to pitch podcasts for a living. You clearly don't know anything that I value. You don't know what I do otherwise you wouldn't send me this and yeah, I'm so on my soapbox right now, these are one of the few things I'm going to get my soapbox. Diane: It's a little insulting, right? It's a little disrespectful. Of your time and of your platform it's like, you're doing them a favor, Oh, I'm prepping it to be a guest on your show. Aren't you lucky? Mai-Kee: Oh, I got that. What you just described is how that is the feeling I get. I, I know that there are agencies that book, new authors, like they've just launched a book and I know that they do something called podcast tours and I get it is to promote that book. But again, it needs to be serviced first. Self-important second. And I can tell when it's. Literally what you just said. Cause I got, I received a Instagram pitch once and I'm not against them, but I am against them when they're like this, when they're like, Hey, I just launched a new book that your audience is going to benefit so much from like when can you have me on the show? And I'm like, hold up, dude, hang on a second. Diane: Right. So, so you kind of hit that point where you were like, Those are the kind of, these are almost the kind of pictures people want me to send to get them on anything, regardless of whether they would connect with that person, audience or with that person. And so is that when you went okay, I'm out of done for you. Mai-Kee: Yeah, pretty much. And I just want to say that, you know, done for you can work. It's just not something that personally aligns with me. I have a lot of friends who have unfortunately been burned by you know, we have some agencies who do the booking and there's always a danger. If they guarantee you bookings sometimes they'll do whatever they can to get you on anything. And that's evident because when I get these pitches from some PR disease and all, some PR agencies, they're completely misaligned and I feel so angry because I think. Your client is paying you hundreds, if not thousands of dollars a month. And you're sending me this, are you kidding me? And I just didn't want any part of that. So that's why right now, like I teach people how to put themselves on podcasts. And right now I'm working on a certification program where I train internal team members when a CEO wants to like. Be out of the weeds, but they still want to be involved enough because they care about the relationships they build. And that's where, like I'm starting to morph into this sustainable visibility movement. That was honestly an accidental birth. I did not think that it would come out the way that it has, but in the mid 2020. I really noticed that I actually see visibility through the lens of trauma. And this is a big section. And I'm literally like, as of today, as of this recording, today is the day I start my trauma-sensitive leadership certification because it's so important for me to understand and to hold space. In a safe way. I'm actually qualified to hold that space for people who they actually have the strategies, they, they, they know what to do. They've got the, how to they've got the step-by-step, but why is it that they're still not doing it? And they have been dismissed so much by the industry saying like, Oh, your it's just your imposter complex. Oh, it's just because you're afraid. It's just because you're not taking action. There's just because X like that. And there's me thinking, hold on a second. Because when I'm visible, I need to constantly check that I'm safe, physically safe, safe on the internet. Things like not sharing a location. I don't tag my family members inside of my pictures when I post them on Instagram, because I don't want people to find them. these are things that we don't often think about this because we're not taught to be safe. First. We are taught to just follow the strategy, ignore your instincts, because this is how you get results. And like, yeah, you might get the results, but what about the consequences that could come about if you haven't like made yourself you know, safe from predators? Has anyone ever thought about that? You know? Diane: Growing up in South Africa, safety is a huge thing for me. And I'm very conscious of not if I'm on vacation, you know, back in the days when we could take vacations, usually not posting, where I am, until I've left the place. Mai-Kee: me too. Diane: one of the first stories I heard in online business was somebody in the coaching space who tagged themselves on a flight or something. And someone came up to them on the plane and was like, hi, I'm such a huge fan. And at that point in time, if that person is in a good position, great, but that can go. Multiple different ways. Right. So I think I'm super aware of it. And I always feel like kind of the Debbie downer, when I'm texting my friends, going, please don't post where you're going and please don't do all of these things, but you're right. It is a real safety issue that I think a lot of people don't think about. Mai-Kee: Yeah. And especially for women, because I'm here in the UK there was a recent incident in the news where a woman was attacked on her way home, and it sparked a huge, huge, huge conversation about women needing to be safe. And there was a lot of awareness, you know, for men. Cause that I saw this in the comments, it was like, Oh, I don't actually give it a second thought if I want to take a walk at night. And then there's the women also saying like, there's a reason why we have to have keys in our pocket, like ready to strike, why we can't have our music on full blast, or while we put what we have a friend on the phone with us, even if it's fake, you know, there's a reason why we do all those things is because we are hyper sensitive and hyper-conscious. Of our safety, that isn't as much of a privilege. And I just want to, like, I know this is a podcast for women listeners, so I know that we're going to, I know this is going to be okay, but for any men who might stumble across the conversation, I'm not pointing the finger. I am simply expanding awareness for all of us, because some women are also not aware of, you know, the things to be careful about. You know, just so that they can feel safe in their own skin. Diane: Yeah, I definitely don't think even women being, so hyper-aware physically have translated that hyper-awareness into the digital space. I think people underestimate how easy it is to find you from social media or whatever, and you don't know, who's looking. So when you're physically, you can feel the person's three steps behind you, even if it's innocent and you're prepared, but you don't know who's looking at your stuff. So your control of it is so limited, but we don't think about it. But how do we then, get visible for our business in a way that's safe and the way that feels good to us, and that doesn't require us to tick all the boxes. That everyone's telling us we need to tick because I feel like visibility is this huge monster that when someone says to me, I need to get visible. My brain goes into a checklist, social media, do they have YouTube? Do they have a podcast? Are they guesting? Here are the 200 things you could be doing? And if somebody is not going to pitch 101. Mai-Kee: Which again? I don't Diane: days, I kind of can't get over that. Where do they, where do they begin? How did, how did you discover your sustainable visibility? Mai-Kee: Yeah. So for me personally, I realized what it was like to be seen before I was Freddy. So today I just posted a reel on my Instagram about the difference between exposure versus being seen. And I'm just going to quickly tangent on that for a second, because. When I get emails from people who clearly don't know me and they don't actually have my consent to email to me, they're like, like, Oh, you know, if you do this, you can get this exposure. And I'm like, when has anyone ever said, I want to be exposed. I'm pretty sure like next to no one wants to be exposed. But it's a word that has been like, used interchangeably with, having reach in your business. That's a very different thing. Right cause exposure that word, it feels very violating. It feels like it's without your consent. That's really what it is. Diane: yeah. It's like someone's gone into your photos and sold it to TMZ. Mai-Kee: It feels like you're being exploited. That's normally like the kind of emotions that come around, you know, that word exposure versus being seen seen is with your consent scene is with your, like, with your intention. Right. And you are choosing who you're putting yourself in front of that is why? Because in the beginning, I trust me, I understand what it's like to want to jump on every visibility opportunity, even if it's not perfectly aligned, a part of you is going to think, Oh, but I need this right now. I need this. I get it. Yes, it might work. It really might. But you also put yourself at the risk of being in front of people who actually don't have your best interest at heart is not aligned. You're gonna, you might find yourself with misaligned clients that you take on because you have to. So again, we all go through that. We all go through that. It's almost like a Rite of passage to know what we don't want. We worked with clients and when we've reached our own boundaries in order to put food on the table, I get it. We all have that. If you are in a position to be more selective with the opportunities that come your way, please do. Because this is where I got started by him. I started thinking, okay, how do I want to show up in which capacities? So. Having my own podcast was the perfect antidote who might introvert itself because I am more of an introvert. And then I am an extra I've I've I can switch back and forth a little bit, but I definitely know I haven't introverted core. So because we're blogging, like I actually used to be an ex copywriter, so it should come naturally, but it's not the same thing. Writing it didn't bring out the best in me. I, it brought out my perfectionist and it was the same with video. I had, I do have a YouTube channel is not active. It's still out there by posting anymore. And it's because I had that perfectionist monster that kept attacking me every time. It was like, how's your hair? Look today. Mai-Kee how's your makeup. What about your clothes? How about your voice? How's the lighting? Oh, shoot. Clouds just went by retake, Diane: Yeah. Mai-Kee: right? Exactly. Yes, there's so much. And it just got in the way. So for me, podcasting was a way to be more expressive because I am a verbal processor. So that was one thing. But before I started showing up, I did have things like legal stuff. So I needed a, you know, a privacy policy. I needed disclaimers. I needed terms of use all on my website. So if there's any breach of intellectual property, like. As of right now, I'm going through an intellectual property breach. Someone's stole my content. I'm still working through it. And I realized, ah, if I'm too visible, some people will start copying me. So I need to. Diane: There'll be at least one person listening to this thinking. You can't think like that you have to go from a place of well, they wouldn't be able to deliver it the way you deliberate but I can see it from your perspective and people are like, Hey do I want to be this giant thing that then everybody is trying to take from? Or do I want to be more considered. About where I show up and how I show up. Mai-Kee: Yeah. And don't get me wrong. I understand that. I do know the fact that no one is going to deliver my content the way that I do, because I know where mine is rooted from. Right. So even if they try to copy, they won't necessarily get the same results, et cetera. But that's not the point. The point is that if they coffee and I don't do anything about it, I'm enabling them from copying other people. And that's also going to take away from their own genius that they could have because the people who copy often don't have the confidence in themselves to get the results themselves, that they try to leverage of other people in a similar space to them. So if anything, Me taking legal action is a way to remind them like, Hey, you have your own genius. It's a real shame that it had to come to this point that you felt that you needed to copy someone else's stuff, word for word, you know, and pass it off as your own. But, you know, have this be a, you know, a teaching point for you that in order for you to not experience this legal action, where you're the person who's being caught out on it. That is your responsibility to build yourself up and not take from others. And yeah, a part of me did think a part of me did want to shrink, like, Oh, maybe I shouldn't be so big. Cause I don't want this to happen. No, like I take legal action and I also know what to do to protect myself in the future. And I also stand by the fact that I know that there are clients and customers who want to learn this thing in the way that I teach it. So I'm not going to stop serving them, you know, but some things do need to be done. Diane: It's not a fun experience, but I think you have a really. more balanced approach to it. I would say than most people, if somebody stole my stuff, I think, I don't know that I would be, I'm going to take legal action against you because ultimately this will also help you. I would be like, I'm going to take legal action against you from just sheer rage. Mai-Kee: I mean. Diane: So I'm very embraced. Mai-Kee: Trust me. I am not a Saint. Let let's just say that because I give myself permission to have a pity party or a pithy party, because we all have the right to have our feelings, right? Like their feelings are meant to be felt. That's why they're called feelings. And so I, in a private, safe space is normally at home with my partner or with my journal. I normally like let everything out. Like I'm not being considered or anyone else apart from my feelings. That moment. I give myself that space just to be, because when I found out what happened, I was actually shaking with anger and I'm not someone who gets angry very often is extremely rare, but I was shaking with anger and I was crying and shouting at the same time. Bless my partner. She held up a pillow for me. She's like make eight. Go for it because like we do martial arts together, but I wasn't gonna hit her. Obviously I was hitting the pillow because I needed a way to get all this excess energy outside of my body. And it needed to have my thoughts outside somewhere, whether it's me verbal processing it or posting something through my journal. I needed to do that first before I could have a calm head. I also called him my lawyer friend. I also consult my team to ask them to give me their perspective so that it's not just me. Acting on my own feelings. And so, you know, I have several filters before any communication passes, so I think that's how you can you Diane: Yeah, I would need several of those strategies, I think. So how do you not shrink from that though? You said, you know, there is the temptation to be like, if I were smaller, People wouldn't notice. And therefore they wouldn't steal from me. I mean, people have a multitude of reasons for wanting to be smaller from things that have happened to them in the past two things people have said to them too, not wanting to be seen to not wanting to be too big. So how do you get that visibility without trying all the things, but also without feeling really uncomfortable doing it. Mai-Kee: Yeah, because, you know, And again, as someone who has been through trauma, like I won't go into that story. That's a completely different story. But as someone who's been through that, I'm not truly hypervigilant. So it's like, okay, how could this affect me? How could this affect other people, et cetera, et cetera. So when it comes to the shrinking side of things, I do let myself drink in private quarters. Like I just, whether it means a couple of hours, couple minutes, a couple of days, however, I need to process it. I do. Because it's important, not to kind of like suppress that and just shrug it off because if something matters that deeply to you, it won't go away. Even if you want it to, it needs to be addressed. So sometimes that might mean speaking to friends, it might mean speaking to professional. Like I'm raising my hand here. This is the first time I've said this on a podcast. I have recently. You know, sought help in therapy because I need some things to process because I know some of those things that are unprocessed, it will affect my clients along the line if I don't address it. So, and like my clients that we have very open conversations in my group program. Like a lot of us do have therapists and it's great. We love how we can normalize mental health conversation. So giving full permission and feeling validated in our feelings is so important, Diane: I think so much of what I talk to people about is like doing the thing that feels good for you. And you know, when you were talking about physically protecting yourself, I think there's that energy and emotional protection as well of like. Your YouTube. I can only imagine like how much it would have taken you to be like, okay, is everything good? And then you're nitpicking over every little, like frame of yourself. That's not healthy for you either emotionally. Right. So I think it's visibility you're right. Is so connected to all the things that make you want to not be seen, we don't even begin to like, think about that. We just try to do all the tactics. Mai-Kee: yes. And to speak to that when, so that is what I do when I want to shrink, but here's how I rise above that after. So it's not ignoring what I need. It's not ignoring how I'm feeling. It's not ignoring my fears. I lean very deeply into my fears cause I want, I want to understand what they're trying to tell me. And I've actually, I've worked with the hypnotherapist in the past and he's really helped me to bridge that gap between me and my subconscious fears and long story short. I make friends with my fear. This is what I help my clients do. We characterize their fears like into whatever is show that for them, for one of my clients, it was a demential like from Harry Potter. For me personally, it's like the Pokemon ghastly is like a which if you don't know what that is, it's kind of like, it's a ghost Pokemon it's it's like. A dark purple ball with purple flames has got really mean eyes. Right? So I, I literally pitch a ghastly. And then over time when I start listening to him, okay, glossy, what, what are you telling me? Although for me, I called mine Rocky, because Garcia is a levitating fireball. Right. But when I listened to him, what happens is that his. Character physically shifts. It shifts from a floating purple ball into a solid rock that can no longer levitate. It's got its really cute little arm to beat. Right. And that transition can only happen when I'm listening to him. What was he trying to tell me? Cause all fear. That's trying to protect us. Some of them, some of them are really going to help us. And some of us will tell us if there is something deeper to address. So again, If you need to support yourself with mental health, there is no shame around that because raising my hand right here, you can't physically, you can only hear my voice, but I am like, Diane will tell you, I'm physically raising my hand here, but here's how I shine. Like how, how go from shrink to shine right. To being visible is because I realize that if I don't who wins. I take my clients and anybody actually, who, you know, has this mindset shift. I was like, Oh my God, what? You know, what, what if I don't do this? You know that when they want to shy away, I take them through this golden field visualization. If you're in a position and right now, please follow along. So if you close your eyes with me and I want you to imagine you're standing in the middle of a golden field, so this could be a wheat field, whatever. Like I just think of a field of gold, like a meadow. It's beautiful. So I'm looking around admiring the environment. And then I look forward to see that there's a person standing in front of me and she looks quite sad, actually. And I asked her, is everything all right? Are you okay? She looks at me and says, why didn't you help me at that moment? I'm confused and not quite sure what she's saying. And then I turn around in another direction as someone else. She had a very similar look and I did ask her, are you okay? She looks up at me and says, why didn't you help me? And before I know it, whether it's North, South, East, or West everywhere, I turn suddenly it's a sea of people. I can't even see the cold meadow anymore. Take a deep breath in and I ask one more time. Are you okay? And they all say in unison, why didn't you help me? see that Diane, I physically. Have to take myself through this visualization sometimes because I realize that I know that I am not someone's savior. None of us should ever be saviors in my opinion, because I think it creates a, quite an unhealthy dependency on us for responsibility. That's not ours to take. But I take myself through that visualization to realize that there are some people who do want to learn something specifically from us. It's not just a content is a context of delivery. It's who we are. And that's what happens if we stay shrunk, it's okay to shrink temporarily. But if you're really here to make a difference, you'll know that there's something bigger than you. And that's what you need to take care of yourself first. So you can have the capacity to help other people, Diane: yeah, that was, it's actually a really powerful visual. I actually felt the gut punch and I was like, Ooh. Okay. We've, we've had our moment. We've shrunk, we've punched a cushion, we've screamed, we raged, we've done whatever. Then we've taken ourselves through the visualization and we now see all the people who need us and we're ready to shine. I now want to do social media posts five times a day, guest on 101 podcasts. I have a YouTube channel. Like how do I then. Know which direction to shine in, because if I try to shine in all of them, then I kind of become like a miserable just like speckles. But if I focus in Mai-Kee: So number one is important to realize what you're looking for. Are you looking to reach a small amount of people very deeply, or are you, do you need to reach the foundational level for a lot of people? Because for example, if we have a core space business, we're probably going to need more volume. Right. But for someone like myself, I only have VIP days. I have a high touch mentorship program for Stingel disability. They are very high touch. I don't need a big volume. So for me, it makes sense to think of the strategies that are going to deepen relationships. So for me, what that means is podcasting having my own. Being on other podcasts, because I love communicating at this medium. It doesn't take up a lot of capacity because it's something I really enjoy. And it does the job that I'm looking for. It's building that intimate trust and relationship with people either it's deepening one I already have, or people who have yet to know about me, they've discovered me today by listening to this podcast and suddenly say, Oh, I like what this a person have to say. Let me see. So that's where we start with, like knowing what we're looking for. We're looking more for volume or we're looking more for depth and neither is wrong. I just want to say, like, we all have our business models that works for our lifestyles. And then as we move forward, it's like, okay, which one is going to deal with the most return? That's not going to stop my capacity. So one that SAPs my capacity is summits actually. Like I like summits. But it takes a lot out of me. It's often a video conversation. That's a lot of promotional stuff to do before and after. And that's really, that's a part of the process, but I realize I can't be a part of a summit every month. I really can't. I can do podcast interviews per like two to three times a month because I also need to know what capacity I have on the lead-up to the opportunity. And the after effect, because I don't think a lot of people think about the author, think about how much energy it takes for a plane to take off a runway. Right? Most people just think about getting in the air. They don't think about what happens when they need to land. I E when these visibility opportunities happen, do you have the systems to support the volume that will come your way? Diane: everybody? I think preps for the opportunity. So they're there for the takeoff that then in the moment, but very often what I see is people booking the next thing too quickly or thinking, Oh, I've got this thing and then, Oh, it's fine. I've still got like two hours And then realizing they've got off something and. Even a podcast into you. I love chatting to people, but I still need a cup of tea and a moment before, like my brain goes back into okay, let me go work on this thing now, And so I think even that kind of effort of just landing the plane to start with before volume even comes at you, Mai-Kee: And that is what makes visibility, unsustainable. If you haven't taken into account the capacity, you have not just to do the visibility with the opportunity, but what happens after? So that's why in my program, we do the inner work first and the second phase is setting up your business systems to fully receive. So you're psychologically ready. Your business is ready so that when you do the visibility opportunities, You have everything to fully receive it because we actually don't need a lot. I think we're indoctrinated with the idea that we constantly need something, but like I had a client yesterday, VIP day client. She asked me how many podcasts should I pitch to? And I said, how many podcasts do you want to be on? What do you have the capacity for? Not just to do the interview, but to promote it. And then that completely changed her perspective. She was like, Oh, and that she, she brought her team member on and she was like, Oh, that's very true. We still got to promote it because come on. Y'all like, don't be the kind of podcast guests that just shows up and doesn't do anything. When the episode goes live, we've all had guests who have ghosted us. So please don't be that person. Be the person who stays for the conversation, stayed in touch and. Maybe there is a potential for future collaborations. Cause that's what I love about podcast guesting. It's not the end game. It's the, Diane: I want to flag something that you said in case someone missed it is that you talked about being psychologically ready for the opportunity, because I remember like the first time I guessed it on a podcast and I remember getting off the podcast and it was kind of like I had blacked out. I couldn't think through anything that I had said. You know, was that even coherent? you have all of this stuff. And I remember the day that it went live, I remember waking up and because we're in the UK, ahead of the U S you get the episodes first. And I remember listening to the episode as fast as I could get it to play that I could quickly check everything that I had said. And so this whole opportunity from the minute it finished until the minute I could check what I had said, Was just a source of complete anxiety for me. And so when you're talking about that psychological readiness, it is that readiness to be seen, not just by the person who's interviewing you or the person who's interviewing you for the summit or whatever it is that capacity for, like you don't control who sees it. You're not sharing it on your private Facebook to like your friends and family. And, you know, who's on the list. And I think that's a big piece of it as well as Do you want to go pitch Amy Porterfield to be on her podcast and be seen by that many people? It's a capacity. I hadn't thought of it until this conversation. Mai-Kee: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think especially for women, especially for introverts, but not exclusive to. Capacity is everything. That's what makes a business sustainable or one that's going to lead you to a burnout because the amount of people who've told me make it, I've done summits. And I literally want to sleep for three months. Or like when they're doing a launch, a launch is a very high, visible time. Right? A lot of people just want to take a vacation afterwards, or they don't even want to do the fulfillment because it's so exhausted. And when I see that as like, it's because you didn't know your capacity, not a lot of people talk about it. We want the result of getting X amount of money, having the six figure launch. Like we're taught all you need in order to have successful launch, you need six figures. And you know what, for me, a successful launch is by the end of it, I'm excited to serve my clients who come in. I still have enough capacity to eat dinner with my family. Like those things matter to me. And I. Because I love my business. I love who I get to serve. I'm so grateful for every person who comes through my door. I am. And in order to have that maintained gratitude, that sustained way of being capacity. First safety first. Diane: it's such an interesting flip of the capacity perspective. It's actually saying, forget about what everybody else is telling you to do and start with you and then work from there. I love that this has been Mai-Kee: know it's gone so many different directions. I love it, Diane: people are going to be like, I never knew podcast guesting was this deep so where can people get started with your methodology with understanding how you think about podcast guesting? So that they don't get trapped into paying an agency too much money or doing really bad pitching on their own. Mai-Kee: Thank you so much for asking this. And when you, cause I remember like when you promoted the fact that we were having this conversation to have a podcast guesting, I realized, Oh actually we didn't really touch on it, but I I've got you all covered because I wanted to make it very clear that my idea of what it means to pitch a podcast, isn't purely my own projection. Of my own experience or my experience of being a podcast and myself, that is why I have an amazing resource for you is called be our podcast guests. And you can get And this is where I brought in 25 experts. Each of them are expert podcasters, and I asked them, what is your one out of the box piece of advice for someone who wants to get on podcasts all of these podcasts, I was telling you their unique angles, and you're going to find patterns of what podcast is want. There are some that are going to be a bit more specific to that podcast. So it's pretty much a roadmap as to how they like to be pitched, but ultimately it is a accumulation of the collective voice of podcasters. One thing is for sure. And this is a tidbit. One thing is for sure, you can never go wrong if it's personalized Diane: I will make sure that that is shared in the show notes so people can find it easily. So to finish up by, we'd like to ask a couple of questions of all of my guests first up, or what is your number one lifestyle boundary for your business? Mai-Kee: I like to make the distinction between what it means to be free. That's just being available. Sorry, it just made me applies to home, but it also applies to business. So I'm going to do the home version first and you'll see how it reflects in business. So for example, every day when I have cools, especially ones that require a bit more internet. So for example, Cool like this for a podcast interview, et cetera, et cetera. I take a screenshot of my schedule and I sent it to my family, the ones who I live with. So it's my partner and partner sister, et cetera. And I Mark it red for the ones who for the calls that require absolute quiet and more internet bandwidth. And then I noticed at one point my partner letter she was like, Oh, are you free at this point? Because I see you've got no calls. And I said, no. And she's like, But on the schedule though, you don't have a call. And I said, that's true. I don't have a call, but my business isn't just me being on cools is also me doing admin is also me writing copy all the things that aren't marked on this calendar. I will tell you when I'm available and it's not right now, but it is at this point, you know? So I'll give a very specific timeframe of when they can expect me to be available for them at home. So I'm very firm at home, but also in my business, like I can't take more than like. Like three calls is a good number. Four is stretching it a little bit, and it also needs to take into account the type of calls they are. So for a podcast interview, I'm active for a training that I'm not running, then I'm listening. So I'm again aware of the different capacities that each activity like creates for me. So I have very, very firm boundaries around when I'm free, versus when I'm Diane: I think a lot of those in business, you learn by making the mistake once. And for me, it's when I do a podcast batch day and I go over for interviews, I have no voice for the fifth interview. Like it's completely gone and it makes for a really bad interview because I'm trying not to cough, but then I'm also so stressed. And then it takes till the next day for my voice to come back. So I can't do anything else. So, but I only learned that. By scheduling podcast days that had too many people in it by thinking, Oh, I just like to talk to people. That's the only thing I have to care about. No. So I liked that again, available versus free. Okay. And what is the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've got as an entrepreneur? Mai-Kee: When I was very, like, I started my business straight out of university, so I was 22 at the time. And okay. Full transparency. My first business failed. Okay. Actually my first two slash three businesses, the one I'm in right now, it was pretty successful. Anyway, back then I was a. Oh, wait. My business card is right on my desk. I have my six year old business card, the emotional eating transformation coach. That was my, that was my title at the time. So I trained holistic nutrition, all the things. Anyway, I needed to build my network. I needed to, you know, position myself at the next, but I did have the credentials. but I didn't have the reputation yet because I didn't have experience cause I was new. So a, I call them a shadow mentor because I didn't pay him to be a mentor. And he was kind of like the shadow version of my mentor did pay. So he came up to me once and said, Oh my, okay. To improve your positioning on Facebook. Except every Fred request that you have. So you max out at 5,000 because when they reached out to, to try to add you that all sorry. You, you know, this person has maxed their friend limit, then they have the option to follow you. That's how you position yourself. And it was actually then Diane, that I ignored my intuition as a woman, because I started having secret conversations with women who also got the same advice. I was like, Hey, there's this guy who, again, not men on evil. It just so happens that the past. And I've seen it has been men. They send me inappropriate messages and I mean, all of a sexual nature, I'm not going to compromise my sense of safety, even if it's cyber safety, just for that bloody positioning is not real it's fake. So yeah, the worst advice I've received that has actually been a genuine threat to my safety is accepting will destroy requests, no matter who they are, just so that you can get maxed out Diane: Yeah, I have to say I have had that advice and I have never followed that advice because it felt so violating to me. I will not accept a friend request if we have not met, if I do not know who you are. So I will gather everybody that I've met in that in beans and bring them into Facebook. Sure. will not connect with you if, if I don't know you LinkedIn. Sure. Go wild. Connect with me on LinkedIn to your heart's content. But Facebook, where there are potential personal photos where somebody could be tagging me in something where like friends and family reside. . To me from a safety perspective, especially if you post about your family or your kids or anything like that on Facebook, you forget who's on your friend list. Then you've got 5,000 people you can go to no chance remembering who's on your fake friend list. Mai-Kee: Exactly. And actually a long time ago when I actually started becoming more visible I actually removed a lot of my family from my Facebook that they were like, yo, why aren't we friends anymore? And I was like, trust me, it's for you. It's for you. And also for, cause I don't want people to find my family cause they didn't have a choice of whether to be found or not. So I don't want any. I want to reduce anything or prevent anything from my end, you know, that like that stuff is so important to me. So like, I like removed all of my beloved friends and family and some friends are business owners, so that's a little bit different, but yeah, it's, especially in my immediate family, I removed them all. I blocked them all as well, so they can't add me back. And also I locked a lot of the photos on Facebook as well. That used to be like from my teenage years, for example all of that is so important. Like I don't think I can stress it enough. Just this whole conversation has been about like cyber safety to be quite honest, which I really hope is is, is, is a confronting conversation for anyone who's listening to this point. We so appreciate you for being here and listening to this. Cause it's not an easy topic to digest, but it is an important one to have. Diane: Yeah. And I think it's an important one to have when people are seeking disability is to think about what does that level of visibility. Mean to you, do you really want 10,000 followers? How does that feel? Does it feel expensive? What does it feel? Terrifying. And is there a reason? Mai-Kee: my first thought is like, I don't have the capacity to have sent out them follows right now because our respond to all my deals. And I have like just under 2000 followers right now on Instagram, but I have such. Rich beautiful conversations in my DM. So I can't imagine like five X seeing that and like, Oh God, I wouldn't be able to respond to everyone by then. I might have Diane: Yeah, Mai-Kee: me with that. But Diane: but yeah, there are the consequences, energetically and safety-wise and psychologically for you being that visible. So I think this conversation has been super interesting and incredibly helpful. I don't think enough people talk about it. So thank you for sharing that and sharing so openly about your business and your story. I know people are going to want to add to those 2000 and come and have a DM conversation with you. So is Instagram the best place for them to connect with you? Mai-Kee: It is going to be Instagram. So you can find me at . M I K E T S N G. And I know that my name is not that you used to remember. So. The beloved, Diane will put my link in the show notes. I'm sure. If you want, have a conversation about safety and visibility, I'm always for it. So please do DME on Instagram. Like let's start that conversation and continue it. Diane: much, Mekhi. This has been fabulous. Mai-Kee: Thank you so much for having me.

Most visibility strategies focus on how many people you can reach without considering how you handle all those eyeballs on you and the ripple effect that can cause.

Mai-Kee Tsang walks you through making your visibility strategy safe and sustainable as well as successful.

Key Takeaway

You need to put safety and sustainability first in your visibility strategy or you won’t have the capacity to serve the people who find you.

We talk about

  • The difference between visibility and exposure
  • Why safety should be a key consideration in your visibility plan
  • Making friends with your fear
  • How to shine when you want to shy away (Mai-Kee’s Golden Field visualization)
  • How to find the right visibility strategy for you
  • The key to making it sustainable
  • Mai-Kee’s lifestyle boundary for her business
  • The worst cookie-cutter advice Mai-Kee’s been given on her lifestyle business

About Mai-Kee

Mai-kee Tsang is a Podcast Guesting Strategist & The Sustainable Visibility™ Mentor She helps introverted and empathic entrepreneurial leaders to feel safe in the spotlight when they guest on aligned podcasts, so they can become Sustainably Visible™ to grow their business for the long haul.


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The information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast episode and article are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article or episode. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article. Diane Mayor disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article.