How To Use Learning Design To Improve Your Course (And Your Finish Rate) With Emily Walker

TRANSCRIPT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED [00:00:00] Diane: Hey, Hey, today's guest Emily Walker turns big ideas into profitable courses that people will actually finish. She hates cookie cutter courses. As much as I hate cookie cutter strategies, this should be fun. Hey Emily, welcome to the show. [00:00:12] Emily: Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited for our chat. [00:00:15] Diane: I'm so glad we finally got to do this. We've been trying for so long. let's kick off with a bit about your entrepreneurial journey. [00:00:22] Emily: Oh, yeah. I always like to say that I kind of face-planted into my business. It was definitely not where I thought I would end up at all. I was doing my master's degree to become a French teacher. That was my plan. I was on track. I was like, I'd applied to teacher college and I just started to get this. Feeling that I was like, I don't want to teach in a public school for my whole life. I love education. I love teaching, but there's just something about it that didn't feel aligned for me. And thankfully, just through a kind of a series of fortuitous events, I fell into the world of learning design, which is so important in education about how do we actually architect and experience so that our learners are getting the end result. They're getting transformation, they're getting good results. And I got to do this whole learning design thing in the corporate world where it's really, really common. Yeah. Designing compliance, training or workshops or anything for your employees, you bring in someone like me to make sure that your employees can actually, you know, get the thing that you're turning them on how to do. But unfortunately, I just realized that the subjects that I was training people on the types of courses I was designing was a little bit of a nightmare. I had to do a course on hazardous materials. It was all about his Festus and mold and all the different things that could kill you. And that was really the tipping point for me. I was like, I can't, I love learning design, but I cannot just stay in this, this world where all the things are like compliance training and a little bit. And just around that time. And I started kind of casting my net to be like, do I have to have like a complete career change? Do I need to go back to school? I kind of, I think it was through a Pinterest vortex. I found the kind of world of online entrepreneurship, where I saw so many people were creating courses and running programs, but I realized I was like, wow, all the people who are teaching. Yeah. I have a marketing background. I didn't really see anyone who had an education background who had a learning design background. And as a result, you know, the couple of free courses that I tried out, a couple of courses I signed up for, I was like, what is this like six hours of video and 500 page workbooks. And like, I kept seeing people throw around the stats of like, you know, less than 10% of people are going to finish your online course. And I Was like, no, no, there's a better way. And so that's how I decided to start my business. So I could be the better way for people. [00:02:28] Diane: Yeah. Was having flashbacks about the corporate training as you were talking compliance training. Obviously I was in banking, so there was an awful lot of regulatory and compliance training that needed to happen. So. We get a lot wrong about this in the entrepreneur space, because we figure out how to do something and then we try to teach people to do it. And obviously everybody has different learning styles and different learning preferences, which we tend not to take into account. I think people are getting better at it as more people like you are coming into the space, but where should we really be starting? there's no point building a course for people not to finish. [00:03:03] Emily: Yes. Oh, I love this is so good. And I think, you know, one of the first things that people need to remind themselves of like, this is before you start designing your course before you've really done anything to do with bringing this course to life is reminding yourself that you are not at the same point in your journey as your people. And this may seem like really obvious to say, because you're like, oh, well, like, obviously I'm not at the same point. That's why I'm creating this course to sell to them, to like help them get to where I am. But I find people they think about that. But then when it comes down to designing the learning journey that they're taking their people on, they end up kind of approaching it. Lens of expertise. So they don't necessarily take the time to figure out, like where are your people starting? What do they know? What do they not know? What skills do they have, which they not have so that you can intentionally build your course as a path that kind of meets them right at their feet. And often what happens is we're like we're so in our realm of expertise, we know our stuff so well that we tend to miss things. We either start too far behind and we make things really elementary, or we start too far ahead of our people. Overwhelm them. And they're like, I'm already lost. And I just started instead of putting ourselves in our learners shoes and going, okay, where are they? And what do they need to succeed? [00:04:15] Diane: I feel like we're taught to justify the price points of our course by jamming it full of things. And then adding a bonus stack on top. [00:04:24] Emily: Yes. So true. [00:04:27] Diane: So bonus stacks, yay. Or nay as a starting point. [00:04:30] Emily: Ooh. So my opinion on bonuses is that there's nothing wrong with having a bonus. You know, if you want to get a little bit of that sales psychology and people feeling like they're getting like lots of like good stuff in there. But what I find often happens is either people take things that are. Essential to the learning transformation that you've provided like that you're promising as part of this course. And they put it as a bonus. And my philosophy on bonuses is that they should. Just that a bonus. It shouldn't be something that like, if you don't have this bonus, you can't get to the course transformation. It should either be something that's like, this will help you take your next steps after you finish this course transformation. Or, you know what, if you go through all the modules, you can totally get the promised result, but this bonus is going to make your life way easier. Like, so for instance, if maybe you have a course on web design and the bonus is some. Swipe copy to help you write some of your pages. It's something that can help the transformation, but it's not like a core module. And that's where I find people tend to start like carving out pieces of their course and putting them as bonuses or exactly like you said, people start to feel insecure. The value of their course. So then all of a sudden you get these things where it's like 8,000 bonuses with all these made up values as well, where it's like, this is a $10,000 value, and this is a $4,000 value. So you're actually getting this $18,000 program for $10. That's what really starts to grind my gears. [00:05:50] Diane: Yeah. It's not my favorite scenario to see either. Cause I just, I didn't believe any of it. So I bought a lot of signature courses. So I'm speaking from the learner's perspective versus having a signature course. I feel like it's trying to get me from point a to point Q so that I'll then join the mastermind to go from cute to Zed. But a, to Q. always feels like an incredibly long journey. Again, probably to justify the two K three K price tag, but I don't feel like I ever finished them. So what makes somebody each course finishable? [00:06:27] Emily: Yes. Oh, such a good question. And so this is where I like to think about I haven't come up with like a really good term for this yet, but almost like the transformation sustainability within a program. And I think that a lot of this comes down to. Being aware of what is the transformation you're trying to guide someone through and how long can they sustain that transformation? Like how long can they wait? Like if you say like, I'm going to get you there in six months. Are they going to be motivated enough to like slog through the course to get there in six months, or if it is a, in this case, what happens a lot with signature programs, you've removed a lot of live elements and like live elements or one-to-one access, or even group coaching access that really supports the sustainability of a transformation because it's that external person being there re-engaging opposed to something that's totally. Self-study. So my philosophy around signature programs that you actually want people to finish is to like, exactly, you said, figure out, first of all, what is the transformation I'm asking? People to get to, and anytime it's either a longer transformation or it's a deeper transformation, you see this a lot with like mindset courses or courses around healing, inner wounds, or shadow work or anything like that. Anything that is deeply personal, I recommend having more live elements in the program to kind of. A more supportive, sustainable container, but if you go, Hey, I thought the whole point of like creating a signature program was to remove myself from the process and have something that kind of can stand alone without me. That's when I recommend making the transformation shorter and breaking it up into smaller offers. And that's where I like to think about all of your programs and how they work together as an ecosystem where it doesn't necessarily have to be an Ascension model where they start, you know, like you said, point a to C and then we go like D to G and then we go, like, HCQ, doesn't necessarily have to be that sometimes they can work together in different ways. But what I really recommend is looking at it and going, if you want to fully remove yourself from that signature program, maybe consider shortening the transformation and then offering the other courses as kind of extension. So instead of going from a to Q maybe have one program that goes eight to I, and then have another one that takes you the rest of them. Because it creates that sense of motivation for your people, because they actually feel like they're accomplishing something. They're getting those big wins along the way. Instead of feeling like you were saying, Okay. I spent like $3,000 on this program. I've been slogging through it. I haven't really seen the results I want and I'm starting to burn out. so I'm going to look at it. [00:09:00] Diane: so if it's completely passive hands-off what do you feel like? Is that like sustainable maximum point? that people can actually motivate themselves through that transformation when does that excitement kick just die. [00:09:15] Emily: Yeah, this is, oh, like my favorite answer is all as, as you know, is it depends. It depends so much on your learners. It depends so much on where they are in the experience scale, because like I would argue if it is a course for like absolute beginners, whatever your subject matter is, they're probably going to have less of a. Attention span because if something's not working and they're not seeing traction right away, they're going to start gold fishing and hopping onto the next thing. Whereas someone who's a little bit more experienced, they have a little bit more nuance. They might be able to stick around longer. So there's not necessarily like a magic, like, okay. Make sure it could be done in four weeks to make sure it can be done in eight weeks or whatever. But what I find really help is like really helpful that often a lot of people miss is the orientation part of your program. So whatever your transformation is, however long your program is spending a lot of time, whether it's, you know, if you have live elements with your people or it's totally self study, Preparing them for what that transformation is going to be. There's actually a lot of theory around this in like models of change and how people make change. That a huge part of the change process is preparation. And often if we skip that, we go right from like deciding to make a change to trying to make it we're going to fall back and maybe not necessarily get to the end results. So in your course, if you can say. I've designed this program. It's probably going to take you about six weeks around the three week mark. I can tell you, you're going to start feeling this way around the five week mark. You're going to start feeling this way. You kind of give people a roadmap of the good, the bad and the ugly of what to expect out of your program. It's going to set them up for success because they're actually going to be able to know like, oh, this like slump I'm feeling where I'm feeling like super overwhelmed and stuck, and I don't want to do it anymore. They, oh yeah. I remember Diane warned me about this so I can actually keep going. [00:11:01] Diane: while you were describing that particular thing, what came to mind for me is do you know a whole footy, the kind of elimination diet program where basically you eliminate everything good and by good, I mean tasty for 30 days, like no excuses and what they have is a day by day. Program of like, here's what you're going to feel on day one. And it's like, woo, this is easy. What is everyone talking about? And then they have like day two, which is like, I can't keep my eyes open a day, five. It's like, I want to kill everyone. But I think a lot of people, like you're saying actually stick with it because they know that the next four days that's how they're going to feel. And then they can expect this to come. And that's a common, the next thing to come. But I never thought of that in terms of a course. [00:11:43] Emily: That's actually, my go-to example is, is the whole 30 bucks, because like, that's so funny that you bring that up because it's so true. It's a 30 day thing. That's asking a lot of people. Like it is a slog. If, for anyone who is thinking of doing the whole 30, like it's not great. It's definitely. Like you said, it takes out all the tasty things, but it does help because it gives your people a roadmap and it helps them know like, oh, wow, like I want to murder everyone. I have no energy. The promise of the whole thirties that you're going to feel better and everything about like everything in life is going to feel better for you. But if on day five, you're like, wow, I feel the worst I've ever felt in my life. You probably just throw in the towel and be like a program supposed to make me feel better. And similarly in our courses, there's going to be moments where your people just have to like trust the process. Like, yeah, I know that you bought this course because you want to have the website of your dreams. So why are we doing another values exercise, or why are we doing another like ideal client exercise? And it's like, you might not want to do this, but I need you to trust the process. So not only does providing that roadmap, help your people. But it also helps you because you can look and be like, are there certain, I like to call them procrastination pits, like where people are not going to take the action they need to take where you can intentionally build something into the program to kind of help them through those lulls or help them through those dips, whether it's, you know, for like the big ticket programs you could like send them a little gift in the mail, or you could have an automated email, or you could just literally have a video being like. I know, you're thinking you're going to skip this exercise and you're probably feeling this way, but I'm here to tell you, like, you just need to do the thing. So they'll do the thing. And they're like, oh my goodness, are you in my mind? Kind of like those cheesy exercise videos you can do at home where they're like, Okay. we're going to do five more pushups. And you're on the floor just being like, I'm just going to skip these ones. And all of a sudden, the X, like the instructor on the TV's, like, don't skip these last five. And you're like, they have cameras in my house, like how they know how I was feeling. [00:13:29] Diane: it's kind of like putting the human element in, even when you can't be there. It's still having that almost. Touch point that they would expect if they were in a group program where they were getting those like weekly check-in moments and that accountability from you. So what about non-passive office? So I'm thinking in terms of something like I do a VIP day, which has prep work upfront. Has stuff for them to absorb and think about before they even get to me. And then they have three hours with me. Should I be thinking about that experience in the same way? when we think about instructional design, I think course or group program, that's a hybrid of coaching and course. [00:14:09] Emily: Yeah. So the thing that I love about learning design and like, it goes by so many different names, you hear like people talking about curriculum design and instructional design, learning design, and sometimes they're used interchangeably and other times they have very specific things that they're referring to. But what I like is when people think about it as a learning experience design, and that's where you give yourself permission to recognize that a learning experience doesn't have to look like. A modular course, it doesn't have to look like a classroom workshop. And so very much with like your VIP day. I think you can very much apply the principles of learning design to that. Because at the end of the day, with anything we offer in our business, we want to get our people a results and how we structure our offer and how we guide our people through that offer is going to determine it. How they're going to get to that result. Now, I'm not saying it's the only thing that determines it, because I think we also need to give our people, our clients, our learners, a lot of autonomy and control over their own own journey, but we can definitely enhance the way that we architect that transformation and support them towards it. And so similarly with your VIP day, I think thinking about. You know, what, what is my person's capacity? You know? And we can fire a ton of pre-work at them, but if they're going to be burnt out from that pre-work before they even get to the VIP day, it's not gonna be helpful. Or if they're going to, you know, you're like, okay, we're going to power through all of this stuff, but I haven't built in breaks, you know, then they're going to, again, burn out. So it's thinking about what is their experience? How do I want them to feel every step of the way. And like you said, adding those human elements in to really have them feel supported throughout every, every element of the experience. [00:15:47] Diane: So maybe it's thinking about my prep work in particular because obviously it's one-to-one, it's pretty full on. but maybe it's thinking about my prep work. As if that on its own is step a to C and then the VIP day is D to Q but actually thinking of it as two separate experiences that come together to make the transformation. [00:16:06] Emily: Yes. I love that because it's almost like, yeah. Thinking of like, you have the, the full transformation of the VIP day, but then thinking about like this beginning, part of the pre-work and going, okay. What's their experience going to be? How do I want to give it to them? Do I want to just give them like a journal? Bucket of work to do and tell them what to expect out of it. And again, that's where that kind of orientation of like, okay, here's what to expect. Like, this is what it's going to look like. This is how you're going to feel. This is the expectation. This is how much time it takes. And as long as people know what to expect, then that's how they can feel support. [00:16:36] Diane: I'm loving this idea of actually thinking of it more as an experience of then a process cause I think there's a lot of aha is that even happened in the prep work that maybe I'm not like highlighting to them. Like I could. [00:16:49] Emily: Yeah. [00:16:50] Diane: Okay. Best thing you've ever seen in a course, worst thing you've ever seen in a course, You do not have to name names. [00:16:57] Emily: Well, I think like right off the top of my head, I'm like best things I've seen in courses have been the courses I've helped my clients design because we always come up with super, super unique and exciting things. I think one, one of my clients I did that I really, really loved is it was like a high kind of high ticket. Hybrid between like courses and group programs, where it was helping people really tune into this like next level brand identity and my client when she's not working as like a brand designer and as a creative director, she also does a lot of creative writing and we're like, how can we. Infuse you into this. And so we decided to have milestones throughout the course where once people give her their homework, she writes them an individualized letter. That's like a letter that reflects back the essence of the brand she's seen from their homework. It gives them feedback, but it's also just like what I see in you and what I see as possible for you. And I think those are always my favorite things that I see in courses is when people take all elements of them and just infuse them in, like you said, that human element, whether it's like, you know, in one of my courses, I have these little, I have this little SOS toolkit. So when people are feeling overwhelmed with designing their course and they. I'm feeling overwhelmed or I'm feeling burnt out or I'm feeling like I'm stuck in procrastination. They can go watch these little videos. And my Dog is definitely on my lap for half of them. Cause I was like, she's important to me. And also if you're feeling overwhelmed, who doesn't want to see a puppy, like I think that's a great idea. So I think, I mean, I feel like I've seen a lot of really creative things in courses that are. Yeah, I just, I think the best things are when people really aren't afraid to think outside of the box and just infuse themselves in something just a little bit different into it as for like the worst things I've seen in courses. I think a lot of it has to be from the user experience, you know, having these hour to hour long videos that you can't skip, that you can't speed up. I mean, I personally am not a fan of any sort of locked progression. And of course there are very there's select times when you can use it. But for the most part. Adult learners just need that autonomy. So like, if I get a course and I can't like jump around and I can't look at things, like, it just makes me. like itchy. I'm like, oh my goodness. Why am I stuck watching this super long video that I don't want to watch that I can't speed up. So I think those very often are the things that I see that I'm like, oh no, like, please, please. Don't like, think about the user experience. [00:19:13] Diane: Yeah. So for me, I listened to all my podcasts and double speed. And I have the same thing if I'm in a course and I can't skip along, I actually can't concentrate. If you speak to me that slowly. [00:19:24] Emily: Yeah. Well, it's like you just start to totally gap out they've made it about them. Like, you will listen to this at the speed that I want you to listen to it at. And that's where we have to find that balance between, you know, there's things like, you know, like what I teach is like educational psychology and like, wow. Like how people are. But at the end of the day, we need to remember that, like we're a human teaching humans and we need to let them have an experience where they don't feel shamed or judged, or like squished into a box where it's like, no, you have to listen to this at my speed. And if you don't want to listen and commit to this whole 90 minute webinars, cause you are not actually committed. Like I would say, actually that is the worst thing I see in courses. And in course, marketing is the shame around, like, if you're not prepared to invest this money, you're a bad person. You don't believe in yourself. If you're not prepared to like. Sit down and finish this course, you're horrible. And on all of these things. And it's just like, we can't force people to do things the way we think they should do them. We need to have that flexibility and we need to let people experience it so that they can take from it, what they need. [00:20:21] Diane: I mean, if you think about it in school or college or any kind of traditional learning environment, if only 10% of the class pass. The teacher would get fired, but somehow in the entrepreneurial space, it's your fault as the student for not learning what you wanted to learn. And especially at a weird in an adult education space where that's usually the person who actually wants to learn versus school, where you're kind of being forced to learn. [00:20:44] Emily: It's a weird thing. And it's just a very strange thing that we've just kind of accepted. We're like, oh yeah, like only around 10% of people finish online courses and we just kind of accept it and, and what that was, what kind of, I think it was a lot of anger that drove me to start my business. Cause I was like, people are doing things wrong. They need to know that there's a better way. But I think also it's just like, you know, there's the people who. They're copying what they see like the big names do. So they're like, this is just, this is how you launch a course. This is how you create a course. This is what a course needs to look like. And we kind of have these ideas of what things need to be. And so it means hours of video and all of this stuff, and it creates so much stress. But when we realize that it's like, what works best for the learner actually works best for us as leaders and as course creators as well, because it takes so much pressure off going. Like I don't, you know, for each lesson you don't need to do a 20, 40, 60 minute video. I want you to do a seven minute. Max. Ideally, if you could get to like five, I would be happy. You know, I don't want you to have an 80 page workbook. I want you to have a three page workbook or a one page workbook or no workbook at all, unless you're doing it like for a very specific reason. But I think it's just that there are so many things we can do to enhance the experience so we can get people the results that we know we are promising them. So we can kind of stop having this accepted amount of failure rate essentially. [00:22:02] Diane: I just went to like underline that or no work. Yeah. there's nothing more frustrating than going through all the effort of downloading a workbook. And it's like some fill in the blank paragraph how is this helping me to learn? If I want to write this down, I've got a notebook and I'm writing it down as you're speaking. But it is that kind of, this is only valuable if I give you a notebook to write it all down. [00:22:21] Emily: Yeah. Or if I have a quiz at the end of each module or something like that, I have a big bone to pick with those types of things. Cause I think what we need, we all need to do is bring more intentionality into it. And this is something that I see a lot with. Clients design certification programs often where they're like, Okay. now I want to certify people in my unique methods and I want to license it and all that fun stuff. Those are times where we need quizzes, or we need some sort of assessment to make sure that people are meeting the brand requirements that we can like stamp them and certify them and say, I can confidently say you're certified in this method. But when people are just buying a course because they have a need and they're like, I have a gap in my knowledge, I have a gap in my skills. Like I need the support. They don't need at the end of a module to be like, okay, which of the three principles of brand design do you remember? Because first of all, quizzes very often are just pulling from a very like regurgitation level of learning. Like, can you regurgitate what you just learned and then immediately forget about it. Whereas really the most impactful thing for our people is results. And so a workbook where they're filling in the blank, if it's not a workbook, what's helping them work through an exercise where they're actually, you know, doing the work that's in the book then like, please just leave it. Like, don't just have exercises or elements of your course, just because you feel like they need to be there because that adds more value or that's just what you've seen done. [00:23:38] Diane: Yeah, I think if somebody offered me the same results in like 30 minutes versus like 16 hours, I would pay the 30 minute person so much. [00:23:47] Emily: Exactly. the value does not come from the amount of stuff within your course. And I think that's like if I could get that made as a bumper sticker as a t-shirt, like, I don't even know, just like to remind everyone, because I see this a lot. I see it in Facebook groups of like my course has 18 modules and 36 hours of video and 10 workbooks and blah, blah, blah. How much should I charge? And it's like, the cost of your course has nothing to do with how much is in it and everything to do with the results that you get, your people. [00:24:12] Diane: I think we should just wrap on that like mic drop moment. So people aren't gonna want to talk to you about this people. I gotta be sitting there thinking, I've done it all wrong. Now I'm terrified to have a course. Where can they get a bit more Emily style help on their courses? [00:24:26] Emily: So I actually have a free guide that I put together and it's a little bit blunt. It's how to make sure your course doesn't suck. And in it, I have some really fun tips, a little bit of learning psychology, just some basic things you can do to make sure that your course is capturing the best of you, but also is supporting your people into getting the results. So you can grab that off of my site. I know Diane is going to link it in the show notes, But. it's also@emilymwalker.com slash don't suck. [00:24:55] Diane: Great link. Okay. So to finish up, I'd like to ask everyone the same two questions first up. What is your number one lifestyle boundary for your business? [00:25:05] Emily: Ooh, such a good question. So for me, it's That I don't work before 10:00 AM. I am not a morning person, so I'm like, I don't take medians. I don't take calls. I don't answer emails. My day starts at 10:00 AM. [00:25:18] Diane: You must get a bit of pressure on that being kind of west coast. So everyone has to check your 10:00 AM. Is everybody else's like lunchtime? [00:25:25] Emily: Yeah, I do. I do. I definitely wear Aisha. I definitely get that. You know, part of it helps us. I have one of my team members is on the east coast, so she can kind of support with some of the stuff that comes in before then. But I remember when I was first starting my business and I was still working part-time at the university and I had a client who was in Namibia. And so I had to start our sessions at 6:00 AM. I'm not doing this ever again. And I just realized, you know, it's my business. And I start my calls at 10:00 AM and I it's been fine. [00:25:56] Diane: If people want to work with you, they will make a plan. I was in a group and someone was like, Oh, my goodness. I can't believe how much value that was. I'm so glad I stayed up till 3:00 AM to join that call. [00:26:08] Emily: Yeah. [00:26:08] Diane: And I was like, whoa, [00:26:11] Emily: that is commitment. [00:26:12] Diane: that is like, you want to learn from this person? Like, that's the kind of level you want to inspire. Okay. Finally, I can imagine where this is going to go with you. What's the worst piece of cookie cutter advice you've been given as an entrepreneur? [00:26:29] Emily: Oh, that is such a good question. So I think for me, the one that I think is the worst piece of advice. And also just, it just bothers me so much is the hoarding of the how. And I feel like we see this a lot in webinars, like teach them why they need something and don't teach them how to do it or what it is or anything like that. And to me, it just, just so. Counter philosophy to how I live and how I teach. And I just feel like people are always going to want to learn from you. And they're always going to want to be in your courses. You don't have to like hide a bunch of stuff behind payment gateways, or like kind of do a bait and switch where you're like, I'm going to have this amazing webinar that promises all these great results. And then just kidding. I'm going to talk about myself for 45 minutes and then sell you on my program. It just makes me so bad. So my, my thing is like, you don't have to do that. Like you can teach people things and you can get them results and they're still gonna want to buy from you. And they're still gonna want to invest in you. [00:27:27] Diane: Oh, this has been so good. I knew this would be fun. I so appreciate it. Where is the base pays for people to carry on chatting to you about this? [00:27:36] Emily: Yeah. So if you have questions, if you have comments, if you just want to say hi and send me pictures of your pets, which I always accept you can connect with me on Instagram at modern leaders, co my DMS are always open. If you have questions about your courses. Always accepting pet photos and often on Instagram. That's where you'll find me posting helpful tips and fun things. Just to help you on your course creation journey. [00:27:59] Diane: Awesome. Thank you so much. [00:28:01] Emily: thank you. This was amazing. Such a good chat.